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Old 11-20-2002, 12:48 PM   #1 (permalink)
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S3s vs S4s

Are they any marks to tell the differences between S3s and S4s? Since I put mine in, I have a laggy bottom end. At about 3000 rpm, if I get on it, the power is not there, but then at 4500rpm or so, the power comes on. I'm almost sure my timing is at 15deg. I also have the S3/S4 ECU. I also rebuilt my motor this summer, and I think the machine shop milled the head too much, and my cam timing might be off. I'm not sure what the deal is. All I know is I have never felt the "power" the S series cams were supposed to give.
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Old 11-20-2002, 01:58 PM   #2 (permalink)
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sounds like you have s4's. you basically decribed the way my car runs with those cams. i've heard that power comes on at 38-4k with s3's.
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Old 11-20-2002, 03:29 PM   #3 (permalink)
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Are there any marks that say S3 or S4? I remember these saying "street" or something like that cast in the cam. My old ones(bent, or ground wrong) did not say this. I'm gonna be pissed if I have S4s. I wanted S3s, so I would not have the low end loss. I don't drive my car at 6000rpm all day.
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Old 11-20-2002, 05:21 PM   #4 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by eric96ser
Are there any marks that say S3 or S4? I remember these saying "street" or something like that cast in the cam. My old ones(bent, or ground wrong) did not say this. I'm gonna be pissed if I have S4s. I wanted S3s, so I would not have the low end loss. I don't drive my car at 6000rpm all day.
My S4s actually said S4 in white marker on the cams. I didnt notice the low end loss, but the power up top is SWEET! you have a HS header? I have the only good $tillen one, the 4-2-1 and it makes more power low than the HS one, maybe thats why i dont feel much if any of a drop down low....
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Old 11-20-2002, 05:40 PM   #5 (permalink)
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Ever dyno your car?
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Old 11-20-2002, 10:16 PM   #6 (permalink)
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I have a 2nd gen HS header, HS CAI, Courtesy cat back. I bought a set of cams after the convention, and installed them. After about 4000 miles, I dynoed. No gain. I then ordered the cam program for my JWT ECU. No gain. After talking to a few people, I did a compression check. 180 180 180 90???? WTF. I pulled the head, and took it to a machine shop to check the valves, and pulled the piston, expecting to see a broken ring land or something. Nope, looks good. I ordered new 10:1 pistons, and new rings. After putting it all back together. 180 180 180 90. WTF!!!!!! I wanted to blow the car up. I then decided to swap the cams out(which I should have done in the first place) 180 180 180 180. I sent the cams back to Jim Wolf, and they said the exhaust cam was bent at #4. I'm thinking, if the cam was bent, it would have damaged the rocker arm, and the cam tower from it flopping around. They sent me new cams. After putting about 2000 miles on the motor, I put the new cams in. These idled better, but I thought it might be the ECU. I went drag racing a few weeks ago, and ran slower times. I figure it was because I'm still afraid of breaking the car, so I wasn't pushing it hard. My ETs were slower, but I would think my trap speed would go up. I haven't had a chance to dyno yet. I'm going to pull the valve cover and make sure the cam timing is correct. I have my base timing set to 15deg, but the distributor is more like in the 17 - 19 deg range, from the looks of it.
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Old 11-21-2002, 12:35 AM   #7 (permalink)
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huh?
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Old 11-21-2002, 02:20 AM   #8 (permalink)
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I've been pretty closed-mouth about this, but I suppose now that I have broken in my S3 cams in my car I can talk about it a little. WOOOOOOOOOoooooooooooo!

I didn't bother looking for any markings denoting anything on the cams, i was too excited. However, my idle is semi-lopey, it pulls like a mother starting at 4, and pulls like a freight train after 5K. My exhaust is a lot deeper now, and the intake honks all the way to redline! I also noticed no power loss anywhere, but driveability suffers a little in 2nd gear around 2300rpm or so.
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Old 11-21-2002, 05:14 AM   #9 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by eric96ser
I have a 2nd gen HS header, HS CAI, Courtesy cat back.
...
...
...
I have my base timing set to 15deg, but the distributor is more like in the 17 - 19 deg range, from the looks of it.
Eric,

keep us posted in the situation as it "evolves"! You are only the 3rd case of no gains or minimal gains I have heard in the past 4 years, only yours has an explanation. I would hate it if something like that happened to me, even more so since a return is hardly an option for us on the other side of the Atlantic.

BTW, don't you have the receipt from JWT? Usually they state on it whether they are S3 or S4 and the lift/duration for them.

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Old 11-21-2002, 07:44 AM   #10 (permalink)
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I bought the first cms from Greg at Mossy. When the new ones came, there was no receipt. I think I still have the oroginal packaging, so I need to find that.
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Old 11-21-2002, 08:03 AM   #11 (permalink)
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Eric this a very wierd situation. With my S4's I did lose some low end power but up in the higher RPM range the car is a animal. When I did my compression check my numbers are very much like yours. I have my timming set at 15 degrees. The way you described how your car is running I would say you have S4's. With out the cams and all bolt-ons I dynoed at 146 whp with the cams I dynoed at 157 hp. My ET's at the track dropped a good amount. I hope you can figure out the problem bro. I would say double check the cam timming like you mentioned above.
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Old 11-21-2002, 11:08 PM   #12 (permalink)
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yah, ECU upgrades just dont seem to yield any more power, 1-2 is the most ive seen. They just seem to give a better ride. thats why im not looking to spend 500 on one unless i ever go nitrous.

btw, how IS the ride with s3/s4s with stock ecu?
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Old 11-21-2002, 11:22 PM   #13 (permalink)
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Sounds like S4's to me.
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Old 11-22-2002, 02:08 AM   #14 (permalink)
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huh?

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Old 11-22-2002, 08:08 AM   #15 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by KikoSanchez182
btw, how IS the ride with s3/s4s with stock ecu?
My car ran perfect. When I dynoed 157 hp I was using my stock ECU. My car drove awesome. The idle was lopy as hell but I never had any idle issues. I have never dynoed my car with my current JWT ECU. My JWT ECU does not have a cam program. I love my lopy idle. Sounds like a Harley.
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Old 11-24-2002, 10:55 PM   #16 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by Rob
My S4s actually said S4 in white marker on the cams. I didnt notice the low end loss, but the power up top is SWEET! you have a HS header? I have the only good $tillen one, the 4-2-1 and it makes more power low than the HS one, maybe thats why i dont feel much if any of a drop down low....
This is exactly the way it is on my car, with my S4's having "S4" in white marker also, with the exception of that I have an old school $tillen (Tri-Y) header. I noticed a minimal power loss down low (really only when accelerating below 3500 rpms in 4th or 5th) in the powerband, but the gains I get at the top end are worth the compromise to me. I noticed a little extra HP at about 4500, with it really coming on hard at just above 5500. And I've still got to get the S3/S4 program into my ECU because I feel like I'm missing out on a few more HP. The jury is still out on this one though, because I only want to spend money on a reprogram if I need a turbo program. Just my input on the situation. Sorry you're not happy with yours.
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Old 11-24-2002, 11:54 PM   #17 (permalink)
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my car felt like sh*t with s4's but after i did full catback with hi flow cat it felt awesome
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Old 07-11-2003, 02:44 AM   #18 (permalink)
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Eric, I have the same problem. I swear the first couple days after I had broken them in I could feel a bit of difference. But now that I drive around with it, I swear to god I got no gains whatsoever. I raced a stock '96 accord or so tonight (at track) and we would go neck and neck and then he would pull on me at about 70mph or so. I also have nother in my trunk at all everything is gone and I am a light light weight. Hopefullly this weekend I can figure out if my compression is f***ed too. I am starting to hate this car sh*t, everything always gets f***ed up. I even raced Carbonblack200 (at track) and I got him off the line because he had a crappy start but he totally just stomped me, by 60 he had at least 1.5 cars on me. Although I only have popcharger and s3's right now. The weird part is when I talked to Ben he is like we are out of the s3's right now so itll be another week to get a batch of them out. Next thing I know 3 days later I have a set of cams..... and the package says s3 but who knows.

Also is there any way cams can be installed wrong? I saw my buddy do it all and the notchees and everything seemed to have to line up just right so it wouldnt seem logical that the install could have gone wrong. And I know my timing is at 15*'s
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Old 07-11-2003, 11:16 AM   #19 (permalink)
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SR20 Inside, you are going turbo so you do not have anything to worry about in the power category. You are still running stock exhaust and manifold, right? IMOH cams alone are not going to do much for you look above you at 3BiP's entry about the catback improving his performance.
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Old 07-11-2003, 02:20 PM   #20 (permalink)
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Quote:
my car felt like sh*t with s4's but after i did full catback with hi flow cat it felt awesome
stock cat is 2.5", just for reference. I think you can get by with a cat-back.
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