Well my SR20 Friends sent me here for a couple of questions. I am getting a new turbo soon and trying to decide which one. I am thinking Stage III, either .48, or .63 on the Exhaust, T04E 57 trim. I am planing on running about 15lb street, and just over 20 strip. I was wondering on how big of a differnce in spoolup there is inbetween the stage I,II, and III turbine wheels. I know the differece that the 48vs the 63 makes. I am going to get both housings and dyno and drive each to decide.

I am wondering if a 57 trim is too big for the car. I have heard that is the turbo of choice for you guys. My motor is only about 160cc less than yall (mine is 1839 and yall are 1998) My stock compression is 8.8 and the bottom end is strong. I am getting a fully ported and polished head, so that wont be a problem. 3"dp and exhaust all the way back. Tubular equal legnth manifold, and standalone engine managment with 50lb injectors.

Thanks guys for the non SR20 Questions. There are only a couple of miata people going into this realm, and most are secretive about their turbo specs.

Thanks again guys

Danny

Hmm... the only real way to figure out if the 57 trim is too big or not is to get a hold of the compressor map for it. Mike Kojima wrote an article in Sport Compact Car explaining turbo sizing and how to read a compressor map.

As for the A/R housing size, I guess it depends on if you want better spool up or more HP. For driving on the street, I'd probably go for the smaller A/R just to get the turbo to spool faster, especially since you have a smaller motor. But that's just me :) But hell, if you're going to try out both, guess it doesn't really matter!

One of my friends has a miata and I've auto-x'd a miata which was badass! It only needs more power which sounds like you're taking care of it. Good luck!

Khiem

Originally posted by TurboMiata
I am wondering if a 57 trim is too big for the car. I have heard that is the turbo of choice for you guys.


57 trim is too big for a Miata... in fact, it's too big for an SR20 unless you are running more than ~24 psi of boost.

Get a 50 trim compressor wheel and the 0.63 A/R turbine housing.

The Pulsar GTi-R turbo also works very well on the 1.8L Miata motor. A friend of mine is running a special ball-bearing version of this turbo on his Miata, and it scoots. Should be able to support close to 300 whp. What more do you need?

Well Rob from what my guys tell me you are the one to listen to. I want 300whp at 15lb, and about 350whp at about 20-22lb. Do you think a 50 trim will do that?

I did 275whp on a T04B, with a stage 1 clipped exhaust wheel, and a 48 housing. I am not sure of the wheel in the t04b but I was told it was the largest you can go in a t04b housing. The inducer is HUGE. Bigger than most of the t04e turbos I have seen.

Thanks.

BTW you think that should be plenty streetable? Do you know off hand what the Honda kits use (Drag, FMAX, and Rev Hard) The way those spool is fine with me.

Thanks again.

Originally posted by TurboMiata
I want 300whp at 15lb, and about 350whp at about 20-22lb. Do you think a 50 trim will do that?

Yeah, no problem. The 50 trim compressor can support about 450 hp worth of air. The turbine will be what limits you. Even then, a 1.8 liter should be able to lay down 350 whp with the 0.63 A/R housing. Make sure you run a proper T-04E compressor housing, not a T-04B housing with a T-04E wheel. There is a difference!


BTW you think that should be plenty streetable? Do you know off hand what the Honda kits use (Drag, FMAX, and Rev Hard) The way those spool is fine with me.


Well, 'Streetable' is so open to interpretation.... I'm guessing it will be pretty soft until ~4000 RPM, but then it should come on strong and pull hard all the way to 7500 or so.

If you want to improve the spool, make sure you run a full 3" mandrel bent exhaust with straight through muffler, no cat, and as big a downpipe as you can get away with.

Extrude Honing the turbine housing is also a good thing to do, and if you can afford the ball bearing upgrade, that helps, too.

Rob you are the man... I know there is a difference on the t04e and the t04b. What a/r on the compressor housing? .50? Do you by any chance have the garrett part # for the 50 trim wheel? What about the stage III exhaust wheel and shaft?

I do have a 3" Mandrell DP, and exhaust with a 3" resonator (good one, just perforated core), and 3" muffler. My WG is re routed back in the DP but about 24" down and at a good slope as not to interupt flow too much. I do plan on getting the housing extrude honed also. I am going to hold off on the ball bearing for right now. Want to make damn sure I like this turbo before I spend the cash on a BB turbo.

If I give you a Garrett PN for my compressor wheel could you get me a compressor map for it.

Thanks Rob...

Also do you think this is the best streetable setup for a SR20. I have 4 SR20 friends right now looking at new turbos. Maybe we will buy in bulk for this :D

Danny

Originally posted by TurboMiata
What a/r on the compressor housing? .50?

Yeah, .50 is fine. The .60 is also OK. Compressor performance is relatively insensitive to small A/R changes.


Do you by any chance have the garrett part # for the 50 trim wheel? What about the stage III exhaust wheel and shaft?


I don't. I have the part numbers at work, though. I'll have to look them up tomorrow.


I do have a 3" Mandrell DP, and exhaust with a 3" resonator (good one, just perforated core), and 3" muffler. My WG is re routed back in the DP but about 24" down and at a good slope as not to interupt flow too much. I do plan on getting the housing extrude honed also.


That is an excellent setup


If I give you a Garrett PN for my compressor wheel could you get me a compressor map for it.


I can't give you an 'official' Garrett map. However, Turbonetics lists several T-04E maps on their web site. Here is a link to the 50 trim T-04E compressor:

http://64.225.76.178/catalog/compmaps/fig13.html


Also do you think this is the best streetable setup for a SR20.


That depends on how much power you want to make. Up to about 310 whp, I think that the 'best' setup is the Super T-28 ball bearing turbo that I have already listed some details on. This will be pretty expensive (~$1400), and won't be out for another 4-6 months or so. If you don't want to spend that kind of money, then a GTi-R turbo (especially with a S14 or S15 compressor housing) will support about 310 whp with very good streetability. Up to about 300 whp, I think that either of these T-28's is a better choice than any T3/T-04E hybrid turbo.

Up to about 230 whp, I think that an S14 Silvia ball bearing turbo is the best thing you can get for streetability. These are going for about $1100.

The T3/T-04E hybrid with a 0.63 A/R will only support about 325 whp on an SR20. Up to this point, I honestly feel that one of the T-28's is a better choice, because it will support almost as much horsepower and has better transient response. However, if you get the T3/T-04E with a 0.63 A/R turbine housing, you can always upgrade to the 0.82 A/R turbine housing down the road. This will pick up about 80 whp, and only costs about $185. This means that getting a T3/T-04E will give you plenty of room to grow.

The T3/T-04E hybrids also cost less than a T-28. However, keep in mind that most of the T3/T-04E hybrids have been re-manned by the aftermarket, while the T-28's like what Andreas or JWT sells are new OEM Garrett turbos built to 3.5 sigma quality levels.

I have heard of many people who buy a 'new' turbo from Company X, only to have it leak oil like crazy as soon as they put it on. New Garrett turbos don't have that problem.

Nothing is going to help your slow ass car Danny.... j/j ;)
Your shit is quick enough! Leave it how it is!
Happy New Year!
Travis

I guess you are right travis. Since I did hang with a 10psi Built motor 318 V8, with head work on the interstate, and that pesky air to water intercooler.. My car is slow. I have no choice but to sell it and get a Honda. I will buy several spare bottom ends to keep my boost needs in check since I will blow them left and right in a honda :D

On the other hand.

THanks Rob for the info. I understand on the Rebuilt vs new theory, but unfortunatly I have spend a lot of money and time building a T3 based system. I am stuck with this manifold, and I could make another DP, but the manifold is the biggest thing. I was origionally going to go with the T25 based system and do a Big T28. Like the S15 turbo (same one used on the Flyin Miata kits). But the biggest thing I did not like was that the turbo was not rebuildable. T3 based turbos are being rebuild by ever redneck in the country (no offence to reputible turbo builders)

You say a .63 exhaust is only good for 320whp on a SR20. Ric Stevens (aka Minimonster, the purple miata from SCC 400 hp cars), Made 400 on a .63 housing. The .82 actually makes a 80whp difference when bolted up.. That is CRAZY.. :D Maybe I should sell the miata and get a 240..

Before I ask any more questions I am going to wait for your responce on the T28 options thread.

THanks again man.

Danny

Originally posted by TurboMiata
But the biggest thing I did not like was that the turbo was not rebuildable. T3 based turbos are being rebuild by ever redneck in the country


Yep, and then rebuild again, and then rebuilt again, and then not balanced right, so they leak oil and rub, so they are rebuilt again...

Garrett's ball bearing turbos are totally different from the 'other' guys' ball bearing turbos. Garrett's ball bearing turbos are tough as nails and built with the same technology as the WRC car turbos are. As long as your use an air cleaner, don't detonate like hell and send a piece of ring land or spark plug through the turbine, and change your oil every 3000 miles, you'll be rebuilding the motor before you rebuild a Garrett ball bearing turbo.


You say a .63 exhaust is only good for 320whp on a SR20. Ric Stevens (aka Minimonster, the purple miata from SCC 400 hp cars), Made 400 on a .63 housing.


Smaller motors require less turbine flow to make the same amount of horsepower. They still require the same amount of compressor flow, though. So, I think that the 0.63 A/R turbine housing will support more power on a 1.6 or a 1.8L motor than it will on a 2.0L motor. Also, Miata's seem to be less sensitive to backpressure than SR20's for some reason.


The .82 actually makes a 80whp difference when bolted up..


On an SR20. YMMV.


That is CRAZY.. :D Maybe I should sell the miata and get a 240..


Definitely :-)

Rob

So I guess I dont need to go bigger than a .63. When I build my motor and bore it to close to 2.0L should I look at the .82? Or will that be drag only.

one other question. How big is the spool difference between a Stage I wheel vs a Stage III wheel?

Thanks again man.

Originally posted by TurboMiata
So I guess I dont need to go bigger than a .63. When I build my motor and bore it to close to 2.0L should I look at the .82? Or will that be drag only.


No, it's streetable. Not much happens until 4500 RPM, but it's streetable. I've heard of it being used on 1.8's, too, but full boost isn't until after 5k.


one other question. How big is the spool difference between a Stage I wheel vs a Stage III wheel?


Don't use a stage 1 wheel with a T-04E compressor. Stage I wheel in a .48 or so will spool about like the big T-28 journal bearing, but won't support as much power.

However, keep in mind that most of the T3/T-04E hybrids have been re-manned by the aftermarket

Does that include F-MAX? I ask this since I contacted F-MAX about their parts and they told me everything they sell is new NOT remanufactured.

-saaby

Originally posted by TurboMiata
Since I did hang with a 10psi Built motor 318 V8, with head work on the interstate, and that pesky air to water intercooler...

Danny

in a 5000 lb lunch box....:)

It was fun meeting up with yall man! I look forward to hooking up in the future and building some turbo monsters... Joey broke his rear end last night... He no longer has positive traction...:( He needs to upgrade his tranny and rear end now. I think 10's are possible with the right setup. I need to get a center section from you. I forgot to ask, are those rebuilt or new? Tommorow I'm going to the shop and redo my exhaust. And try to finish my I/C....
Peace
Travis

The center is rebuilt. But for that price can you complain :D

Sucks about his Rear end.... More like a 4000lb lunch box :D

Either way I was happy with how my car did aginst that thing.


And Sabby I would think that FMAX would use a New T3/T4, but I am not sure.

Danny

Tight...As long as it doesn't go out on me after a week! lol..:) Yeah, your car is quick, no doubt. How much does it weigh anyway? That car can't be over 2000 lb. That thing would fly with the bigger turbo! I'll get in touch with you tommorow...
Peace
travis

It actually weighs 2250 last time I weighed it. The new motor/turbo/IC is heavier than the old setup.

Danny

And Rob when you talk about "other guys" ball bearing turbos.... could you be talking about Turbonetics, or do they use your/garrett BB CHRA.

Danny

Originally posted by TurboMiata
And Rob when you talk about "other guys" ball bearing turbos.... could you be talking about Turbonetics, or do they use your/garrett BB CHRA.


Turbonetics uses their own ball bearing design.

HKS Ball Bearing turbos use Garrett ball bearings

Do you not like the Turbonetics Design? Are they not as good as the Garrett Designs..

BTW did you get a chance to get the garrett Part Number on the 50 Trim and the Big shaft or Standard Shaft Stage III turbine wheel.

Also can you machine out a Stage I turbine housing for a Stage III wheel?

Thanks.


Danny