Hey,
Lots of talk about suspension past few days. Lots to choose from. I am still trying to decide with 90 percent of my decision based on stiffness. I wanted to know which brands do people think are most stiff. I have found it difficult to get exact spring rates from people so what's your oppinion? I am not to worried about dropping the car 2" now, I just really want a stiff ride. So would it be Pro-kit, sportlines, intrax, H&R, other, etc that give the most stiff ride? I am considering coil overs but those are adjustable so they really don't count. Any personal experience? I will say my stock suspension on my 98 SE is really sagging. Darn thing bottoms out and scrapes my exhaust every time I leave my driveway...what a shame. Thanks!

I am considering coil overs but those are adjustable so they really don't count.

Ok, I'll bite first.

Why don't they count?

I will say my stock suspension on my 98 SE is really sagging.

You do realize that coil springs really don't wear out. If your suspension is sagging, something's busted. Like, shocks perhaps?


Darn thing bottoms out and scrapes my exhaust every time I leave my driveway

And lowering springs are going to help this...how?

I just really want a stiff ride
Why?

There's more to it than just buying/installing stiff springs.

if you have B13 there seems only 1 choice - Hyperco... for us with B14, I hate to say it, but seems like OEM springs with AGX sound the best.

If you want a really stiff ride then just remove the shocks/coils and replace them witha straight metal pipe, I doubt you could get any stiffer then that :D

Like Matt said why do you want a stiff ride?

MaddMatt said
Ok, I'll bite first.

Actually you just bit twice. You and I talked with him a little while ago in another forum. I even offered to help build him (I would even help put it on) a good suspension for his ride.

I am not to worried about dropping the car 2" now, I just really want a stiff ride. So would it be Pro-kit, sportlines, intrax, H&R, other, etc that give the most stiff ride?

Listen to the advice previosly given

Steve

If you want a really stiff ride then just remove the shocks/coils and replace them witha straight metal pipe

Damn I was going to recommend cutting up old tires and zip tying that between the coils. Took it out because I thought It would be rude. Oh, well.

Steve

MaddMatt was right on. mrtturbo, there's a whole lot more to suspension than "stiff ride".

NonSER, there are a lot of choices for B13s. Motivational makes a full suspension setup including shortened shock bodies, Koni inserts, GC coilover and Eibach ERS race springs. Truechoice still makes their setup too as far as I know. And for the record - OEM springs with AGX struts are *NEVER* the best. If you want the best it will almost definitely involve coilovers.

What a weird thread. Well, I have OEM springs mounted on AGX's and it *never* bottoms out. If you want it stiff then crank up the AGX's to their maximum settings and that it plenty stiff for most people. Add aftermarket sway bars to that and it will be very stiff.

FYI the picture in my Sig is not the above setup.

Originally posted by sr20detutah
What a weird thread. Well, I have OEM springs mounted on AGX's and it *never* bottoms out. If you want it stiff then crank up the AGX's to their maximum settings and that it plenty stiff for most people. Add aftermarket sway bars to that and it will be very stiff.

FYI the picture in my Sig is not the above setup.


so did you raise your car up too. i guess i'm not the only one 4 wheelin.

Originally posted by Zak91SER
MaddMatt was right on. mrtturbo, there's a whole lot more to suspension than "stiff ride".

NonSER, there are a lot of choices for B13s. Motivational makes a full suspension setup including shortened shock bodies, Koni inserts, GC coilover and Eibach ERS race springs. Truechoice still makes their setup too as far as I know. And for the record - OEM springs with AGX struts are *NEVER* the best. If you want the best it will almost definitely involve coilovers.

yeah I know about these choices, but I don't want the best or most expensive setup, I just want to upgrade my suspension feel to the one of a stock performance car, while keeping it under $1000+/-. I figure $600 for springs and AGX struts/shocks, maybe $200 rear sway bar, $100 motivational rear mount, and $80 Koni bumpstops + $40 for alignment..

Matt said that stiffness doesn't matter... Well I realize that spring has other properties, but whats the point of lowering the car with prokits or sportlines if they're just as soft as OEM springs and will bottom out alot... yea center of gravitiy will be lower, but there still will be bodyroll.

As far as coilovers go - they're a good choice, but they might not be for everyone... besides the high possibility rust, rattles and sqeeaks, car has to be aligned everytime height is adjusted, corner balanced and etc..

I really wish Hyperco had an application for B14, because 1" drop and a correct, high spring rate is a good combination for less body roll, more travel, less maintenance and lower price... which is what I have in mind

Originally posted by mrtturbo
Hey,
I am still trying to decide with 90 percent of my decision based on stiffness. I wanted to know which brands do people think are most stiff. I have found it difficult to get exact spring rates from people so what's your oppinion? I am not to worried about dropping the car 2" now, I just really want a stiff ride. So would it be Pro-kit, sportlines, intrax, H&R, other, etc that give the most stiff ride? I am considering coil overs but those are adjustable so they really don't count. Any personal experience? I will say my stock suspension on my 98 SE is really sagging. Darn thing bottoms out and scrapes my exhaust every time I leave my driveway...what a shame. Thanks!

It seems like everytime somebody wants to look at suspension - the first thing they look at is springs. Is it because spring rates are something that's easy to understand?

No component can stand alone. Springs must be matched with shocks. Ask anyone who has cut their stock springs and run them with stock struts :rolleyes: It's very likely that the type of "stiffness" you're looking for is actually due to the shock valving - not the spring rate.

I recommend you talk to someone who knows what they're talking about, because it's not as simple as spring rate or non-adjustable vs. adjustable spring perches (what you call coil-overs - they're all coilovers...) That means phoning up the various dealers and telling them what you want - they're very helpful.

I'm not 'dissing' you (I'm a 31 yr old married professional middle class Canadian - was that "Ghetto-talk"?) if you want "stiff", talk to someone who knows stiff.

Cheers,
Robin

P.S. I'm not sure if approx. $1100 USD is the type of budget you're into - but if it is, talk to Peter Reilly at Motorsport Distributing. He's the N.Amer. distributor for HOT BITS suspension from Malaysia. They have aluminum height/rebound/compression "coilovers" for B13 & B14 complete with matched springs - they can also valve to your requirements - street - street/track - track - rally. I don't work for him. I just bought the rally struts for my egg rally beater.
http://www.motorsport-dist.com

yeah I know about these choices, but I don't want the best or most expensive setup, I just want to upgrade my suspension feel to the one of a stock performance car

Are we talking miata/mr2 or bmw 3 series. There is a lot of room in there.

As far as coilovers go - they're a good choice, but they might not be for everyone... besides the high possibility rust, rattles and sqeeaks, car has to be aligned everytime height is adjusted, corner balanced and etc..

Rust??? Tell me where cause this is new. The springs are coated better then oem, everything else is aluminum. If you install things right I get get the "sqeeaks" down to very little. And this is with the infamos GC Camber/Caster plates. If you ever get to that point ask me how. If you like just set the height once and forget it. Some of your negatives are really positives.

I really wish Hyperco had an application for B14, because 1" drop and a correct, high spring rate is a good combination for less body roll, more travel, less maintenance and lower price... which is what I have in mind

You are sooo correct. I would not complain about that for a street car one bit. But, I got 1.75 drop by adding the Camber plates and the same spring rate. In trade I live with a little noise every once in a while. It was a fair trade but it cost me some noise and money.

maybe $200 rear sway bar,

Right again. I love the Stillen one but it will cost $$$$

Rally Robin said
I recommend you talk to someone who knows what they're talking about, because it's not as simple as spring rate or non-adjustable vs. adjustable spring perches (what you call coil-overs - they're all coilovers...) That means phoning up the various dealers and telling them what you want - they're very helpful.

I agree but I was led wrong by Ground Control 3 times on my setup. It took about 1 month just to get the spring length right and the perch set at the right place. I know B14's that is all,not b13's.
edit: Ground Control fixed the bad advice with free spring upgrades each time.

Steve

Well, I have OEM springs mounted on AGX's and it *never* bottoms out.

You've never taken it to a road course, have you? :) The problem is that there is very, very little travel in the SE-R suspension, both B13 and B14. What you did, i.e. putting in stiffer shocks will definitely help, but it's not the definitive answer to riding on the bump stops. I've run AGXs AND Prokits (lowered about 1" but the spring rates are about twice as high as stock) and I still bottomed out on a road course... like on almost every turn. And I would hit the bump stops on the street too if there was a large bump in the road.

To determine what kind of suspension you need, you have to be very specific about what you want to do with the car, and how much you want to lower it, and how well you want it to handle. sr20deutah's setup will probably be fine if you never take it to a track and you don't want it to handle much better than stock. Not lowering the car is the key to not bottoming out, because of the aforementioned travel issue... at least if you're talking about real basic suspension upgrades.

So with any suspension combo that doesn't include shortened struts, make sure you don't lower the car if you want to avoid bottoming out, and if you're just driving it on the street. If you lower the car then you'll start bottoming out unless you get very high spring rates, like 500 lb. Even then you might bottom out on the track.

The reason the Motivational setup works so well is because of the shortened shock bodies. You can lower the car 4" and STILL have some suspension travel left over. This is not possible with any suspension combination that doesn't have shortened shock bodies. Of course if you only lower your car about 1 inch, like I did, then you'll have a huge amount of travel left over. Like in the 4" range, which is a hell of a lot more than stock. I can practically drive over curbs in my car without bottoming out. It makes a huge difference in driveability.

I really wish Hyperco had an application for B14, because 1" drop and a correct, high spring rate is a good combination for less body roll, more travel, less maintenance and lower price

Not true. If you drop your car 1", you will have 1" less travel than stock. That's how it works, and that's why I've been going on about why shortened shock bodies are the way to go. A high spring rate might prevent you from hitting the bump stops due to sheer resistive force, but it has nothing to do with travel.

besides the high possibility rust, rattles and sqeeaks, car has to be aligned everytime height is adjusted, corner balanced and etc..

Also not true. My car has coilovers and they don't rattle at all. This issue has been discussed to death on the SE-R mailing lists, and there are ways to fix it. In my case, mine don't rattle because it's the Motivational suspension which is different than standard GC coilovers. And the car doesn't have to be aligned every time you adjust the height, that's just alarmism. And most people don't corner balance their car unless they're seriously into racing it. It's not necessary.

P.S. I'm not sure if approx. $1100 USD is the type of budget you're into - but if it is, talk to Peter Reilly at Motorsport Distributing.

FWIW, the Motivational suspension is only $1400, and it includes everything that Motorsport Distributing's suspension seems to have, but with custom shortened shock bodies. The shocks are Koni inserts that can be valved however you want them and the springs are Eibach ERS springs (any rate you want them, mine are 325 front, 250 rear) and Ground Control coilover collars and hats. If you're even semi serious about racing your car, you need shortened shock bodies, because that's the only way you're going to get around the serious travel limitations inherent in the stock suspension and all the replacement parts for it such as AGXs.

And just so y'all know, the Motivational setup (and any other setup with shortened shock bodies) cannot be compared to "normal" stock-replacement types of suspension such as Pro Kits or AGX struts. There is an absolute world of difference between them. You have no idea how bad the travel issues are on the SE-R until you get a suspension that fixes it. I have had plenty of different suspension setups (stock NX2000, then Pro Kits, stock SE-R suspension, the Pro Kits and AGXs, now the Motivational) and I've ridden in other cars with different setups as well. The shortened shock ones are so much better it's almost incomprehensible until you've experienced it for yourself. No more hitting the bumps stops ever. No matter what you do or how fast you're going, it's simply never an issue at all. The addition of so much extra travel allows you to have shocks with less initial damping but more rebound damping which allows for softer initial impacts, again without worry of bottoming out. My car just swallows huge bumps and dips and potholes and never gets unsettled. The difference is really amazing.

But like I said earlier, you have to be real specific about exactly what you want to do with the car, how much you want to lower it and how stiff you want it to be. There are a number of good options, but not all of them work for any given situation. Making the springs stiffer will just make your ride more harsh, it won't give you more suspension travel. Believe me, I have been there. If all you want is just a basic handling improvement, then get AGXs and front and rear sway bars. That will improve damping and decrease body roll without reducing travel.

Originally posted by 98sr20de


Are we talking miata....

Steve, personally I loved RSX handling when I took a test drive. If my Sentra had any resemblance (I know it has different design..) to that handling I would be pretty happy. Now I do not auto cross or auto-x whatever, so maybe RSX handling sucks for you guys, but for a daily street car I wouldn't want nothing more. I am not looking to be suspension guru and don't want to trade off noise for max. handling :).. so I desire simplest setup that works..
so for now I will probably go with AGX and sway bars like many people have indicated.

Originally posted by Zak91SER


You've never taken it to a road course, have you? :) The problem is that there is very, very little travel in the SE-R suspension, both B13 and B14. What you did, i.e. putting in stiffer shocks will definitely help, but it's not the definitive answer to riding on the bump stops. I've run AGXs AND Prokits (lowered about 1" but the spring rates are about twice as high as stock) and I still bottomed out on a road course... like on almost every turn. And I would hit the bump stops on the street too if there was a large bump in the road....


Zack, as far as I know Prokits drop is 1.5" before settling down (unless you got camber plates) and are not twice the rate of OEM springs (correct me if I'm wrong). Although I haven't taken my car on a road course, I am pretty sure they I will almost never bottom out on AGX and OEM on a street.

I agree with what most of Zak has said. Just a couple points. You can put the b13 inserts in the b14 housings and gain 1/2 an inch of travel. You can use the GC Camber caster plates and gain another .75 inches. With this you can easily lower the front 1.75 inches and not run into bottoming issues if you have a 300 pound spring and you can use the standard inserts. Also, ground controls standard 7 inch spring is too short in front. It will coil bind if set high enough to not bottom out. A 8 inch spring does not help much. With Koni's you can weld a new perch on lower and this allows a 10 inch spring. Also solves the noise problem because the perch gives a perfectly flat place for the GC collar to sit. I have never bottomed this setup. The roads in portsmouth are worse then my track time at VIR.
I know all this only because I put koni's on with my stock springs for about 55K. It was better then stock but still loose. Wanted to keep the Koni's so I purchased the GC Coilover. That started my saga. For the money the Motivationals are the best buy.

Steve

For the money the Motivationals are the best buy.

This is where I may end up. After installing the GC plates I now have much more travel than I did before. The car handles SO MUCH BETTER, I now have to relearn the car. Seriously, night and day difference. What was once a fun car is now a blast. I no longer feel I'm fighting the car to drive it fast. It does exactly what I tell it to do, as it should. But with the added travel and (hopefully) no bottoming, I am concered about coil bind being a problem. We'll see at VIR next month.

Ok then!
How about the Hyperco springs with the Motivational shocks.
That might be a good combo.
You lose some adjustability but save some $.

Actually only about $240.00
Is it worth it? hmmmm

Okay Steve, now that you have me absolutely terrified, I am receiving my GC 325/275 and KYB AGX's on Thursday (hopefully) I also purchased the motivational rear mounts. What extreme difficulties do have to look forward to?