Working on my VE install, should I or should I not install the spacers? I'm skeptical because of the power loss on the dyno of one of the Florida member's rides. Yes it could have been the CAI, but still.

I need to decide by Saturday.

im not familiar with the guy from FL who lost power from the thermoblock spacers. So far, everything ive read about the spacers has been positive. There are conflicting stories about WAI vs CAI and SOTP results, but thats all hearsay as far as im concerned because to my knowledge, no one has dyno a ve back to back with the only change being the intake modification.

I know Serban dynoed and got a loss with the spacers and a CAI.

That FL dood is Serban

I've got a set to fit onto my VE before it goes in, and I'll be running a fully enclosed CAI system with it.
Interesting that this guy got a power drop with a CAI and not with a WAI, considering the purpose of the spacers is to prevent engine block heat migrating into the intake manifold and heating the air up before it reaches the cylinders...

I have posted this before, but this is what i have been told about thermoblock spacers. Again this is hear-say. I was told that it can cause a loss in power because the intake mani actually acts as somewhat of a heatsink for the block. So even through it is charging warmer air it is also helping to disperse heat from the block in turn creating cooler cylinder temps. Not my words but it seems to make sense so do with it what you will.

Given my training I tend to rely on data rather than hearsay; I do have the spacers on my VE; the engine was in the car before I brought up the topic with Dre. Given it's a street car and I'm not after ultimate, I haven't gone through the hassle of taking it apart to go back to stock gaskets. But I assure you that given Serban's data in the absence of other DIRECT comparison data - Serb has runs both with and without the spacers with NO other changes, and he experienced a drop in horsepower, without further data I'd say it would be most reasonable to conclude that in terms of dynamometer horsepower you're better off without them. Given mine's a street car and I do Atlanta in August, I'll probably not remove them. By the way, it is NOT an issue of heat in Dre's opinion but an issue of flow pattern - the tube length is substantially longer with the spacers in place.

So ONE person has a "power loss" and you guys automatically think there will be a loss of power in everyone else's ride? Come on fellas?

Remember the actual benefit of having spacers and what they do, I dont see how a WAI & a CAI could make a difference anyway.

I have my spacers and when I get everything done and going ill dyno WITH the spacers and my CAI and then ill take the bottom piece of my CAI and make it a WAI.

But then I guess to each their own. There are too many parameters to look at in Serbans run, did he take the spacers off right there at the dyno or did he go back a different day? What was the outside temperature, how long was his car running before he dynoed it the first time and the second time without the spacers. I can keep going, I really dont see how this would work AGAINST performance gains, but then thats just me. Stop believing everything you read on the forum and go do things yourself.

Given my training I tend to rely on data rather than hearsay

I agree, i was just stating what i have heard in the past. I would like to see data saying they are worse. Everything I have read, on a DE anyway, has said they add power.

Oh, sorry, turco, wasn't trying to suggest you were operating on hearsay. I wouldn't be surprised if the DE and VE 'reaction' to the spacers would be different, though. And might be different with different cams, too. I'm running bone stock internals; I believe Serban's running N1's. Domiken, Serban is one person, but these guys are careful and very rigorous in their work. They are RIDICULOUSLY compulsive about tweaking every last ounce-foot out of their cars. Yes, I'd prefer 50 runs each on 20 different cars, and I'm not trying to be cute, I'm serious, with changes under controlled circumstances (for example, CAI and spacers separately and together), but we don't have a system organized with enough people with wads of money and time to do that sort of stuff. And yes, you're right, while Serban's two runs were adjusted, I don't think they were done on the same day. Could it have been something else? Of course. I would absolutely LOVE to see your data if you're willing to go through all that hassle to do with/without with both the spacers and cai separately and together; EVERYBODY in any semblance of a right mind would greatly appreciate it whether it supported or disagreed with Serb's data. But I'm sure you understand that if you're only going to take the end tube off a CAI on dyno day you're demonstrating nothing at all visavis the spacers.

Like I dont know how the South FLA boys do their VE work....

Looking at it from any perspective, (1) sample does not constitute for the claim that the thermoblock spacers make a VE lose power. Until someone actually goes to the dyno with a CAI and WAI, installs the spacers and dynos the same day under the same weather conditions in the same month then the information you guys are going by is irrelevant.

And no im not willing to do it, sorry.

You're clearly not trained in research inference. Almost no research is done under ideal conditions, which means that it must be interpreted with care. I don't know you, for all I know you're more experienced as an engine developer than Miko, but I have traded a lot of words on the phone and here with Dre and Serban, and, while I've owned my own shop in a past life and am a research Ph.D. now, I wouldn't pretend to be in their league, I CAN tell the difference between a good wrench and a bad wrench, and those guys are good. And I do understand the issues about method, whether we're testing engine modifications or developing new patient treatments. It is quite reasonable to question their results, but what you suggested doing with your own car will bring no evidence whatsoever to the issue. It would appear you're just operating on emotion (I bought the damned spacers and by god it was the right thing to do, I'll take the data that agree with me and throw away the rest, just like our president), which I must admit I fall prey to myself here all the time. But not when I'm building a car.

For what its worth, I've dynoed after I took the spacers off, and I didn't gain that power back, I was still down on power. Either that, or the dyno was calibrated at a different correction factor when I dynoed my highest hp.

Also, I did not dyno with the spacers on and off the same day. It was the same dyno, but different day, different month. Air temps can make a difference. I was quick to blame the spacers, and cai for my loss in hp, but the comparisson test I did was probably not the most accurate. It would have to be done, the same day, do multiple pulls with each, let the car warm up the same, with and without the spacers.

You're clearly not trained in research inference. Almost no research is done under ideal conditions, which means that it must be interpreted with care. I don't know you, for all I know you're more experienced as an engine developer than Miko, but I have traded a lot of words on the phone and here with Dre and Serban, and, while I've owned my own shop in a past life and am a research Ph.D. now, I wouldn't pretend to be in their league, I CAN tell the difference between a good wrench and a bad wrench, and those guys are good. And I do understand the issues about method, whether we're testing engine modifications or developing new patient treatments. It is quite reasonable to question their results, but what you suggested doing with your own car will bring no evidence whatsoever to the issue. It would appear you're just operating on emotion (I bought the damned spacers and by god it was the right thing to do, I'll take the data that agree with me and throw away the rest, just like our president), which I must admit I fall prey to myself here all the time. But not when I'm building a car.
well if you are trained on research then you would know that one case is not basis for anything... it has to be repeated and validated..

You're clearly not trained in research inference. Almost no research is done under ideal conditions, which means that it must be interpreted with care. I don't know you, for all I know you're more experienced as an engine developer than Miko, but I have traded a lot of words on the phone and here with Dre and Serban, and, while I've owned my own shop in a past life and am a research Ph.D. now, I wouldn't pretend to be in their league, I CAN tell the difference between a good wrench and a bad wrench, and those guys are good. And I do understand the issues about method, whether we're testing engine modifications or developing new patient treatments. It is quite reasonable to question their results, but what you suggested doing with your own car will bring no evidence whatsoever to the issue. It would appear you're just operating on emotion (I bought the damned spacers and by god it was the right thing to do, I'll take the data that agree with me and throw away the rest, just like our president), which I must admit I fall prey to myself here all the time. But not when I'm building a car.

I am HIGHLY trained in research inference (in my field anyway) so please dont BS me with PHd's and owning your own shop as it is irrelevant, I know the quality of the work Andreas Miko does, who do you think boosted my P11? Miko... Who did I get my VE engine from...Miko... Who do I call for VE information and crazy ideas...Miko, who lives 15 min from me...Miko. I am also educated but I can tell you this, like you mentioned "Almost no research is done under ideal conditions" You are correct, BUT you can research and develop and come up with a much more "accurate" result by testing in the way that I explained.

Im not operating on emotion because I can really give two shits, its $100 yippeee, but I can definitely tell you it does not make any sense for them not to make any power, Miko mentioned something about flow pattern due to the spacers thickness (I didnt see his post, but I saw someone mention it) and I also dont think that is correct. The fact of the matter is, these spacers do work, they worked with the DE, they work on all my other friends cars who have them (Honda's, Toyota's etc...) and I dont see why they wouldnt work with an SR20 with VVL. Also the WAI, CAI thing to me anyway, is irrelevant to this whole thing, when your intake sucks in engine compartment air compared to fender "cooler, denser air" the car is to make more horsepower, thats what CAI's do, of course people jump in and mention the "length of the tube etc.." blah.

Well see with the quality "proven & tested" products that I have on hand (Fuji header, AEM CAI, 3" full catback exhaust, Thermo spacers, and a standalone) how much power I can make.

Kev

For what its worth, I've dynoed after I took the spacers off, and I didn't gain that power back, I was still down on power. Either that, or the dyno was calibrated at a different correction factor when I dynoed my highest hp.

Also, I did not dyno with the spacers on and off the same day. It was the same dyno, but different day, different month. Air temps can make a difference. I was quick to blame the spacers, and cai for my loss in hp, but the comparisson test I did was probably not the most accurate. It would have to be done, the same day, do multiple pulls with each, let the car warm up the same, with and without the spacers.

Thanks Serban.

Once again fellas, look at all the parameters and ask questions before you jump to conclusions.

If I could, I would do the dyno pulls, but those spacers are a bitch to put in...

Depends on the kind of data. One case is far better than zero cases if the conditions are controlled. Which they were, if not perfectly, which nothing is. There is far, far, far less error variance in dynamometer testing than there is in, say, testing of some sort of medical treatment on humans. Evidence is evidence, not proof. But it IS evidence. If it's good evidence, which Serban's dyno run appears to be, you're a fool to discount it. Again, use it as evidence, not gospel. If you trigger one atom bomb and it goes off, I'd not be prone to argue with anyone that atom bombs can't work - - - That's research, that's one case, and it's a reasonable basis to infer that nuclear fission can make a pretty decent bang. There are two absolutes in this world: (1) Everything is relative and (2) there are no absolutes.

Depends on the kind of data. One case is far better than zero cases if the conditions are controlled. Which they were, if not perfectly, which nothing is. There is far, far, far less error variance in dynamometer testing than there is in, say, testing of some sort of medical treatment on humans. Evidence is evidence, not proof. But it IS evidence. If it's good evidence, which Serban's dyno run appears to be, you're a fool to discount it. Again, use it as evidence, not gospel. If you trigger one atom bomb and it goes off, I'd not be prone to argue with anyone that atom bombs can't work - - - That's research, that's one case, and it's a reasonable basis to infer that nuclear fission can make a pretty decent bang. There are two absolutes in this world: (1) Everything is relative and (2) there are no absolutes.

I think this whole entire post is utter BS, you know you have nothing else to discuss/argue so you threw in irrelevant crap. One case is far better than zero lol that is hilarious. Serban even came on the thread and wrote that it was done at different times, different month, and he blamed it on the spacers or CAI etc... Youve never lived in South Florida im guessing, the weather changes dramatically. I wouldnt trust a dyno pull 5 hours apart, it could be 90F and then while youre installing the spacers it starts raining for no reason and temps drop to higher 70's low 80's....

So once again, dont rely on (1) test that was done on a different day, different month, and clearly the findings were pure opinion.

Oh and atom bombs and thermoblock spacer findings are a COMPLETELY different things lol... once again... IRRELEVANT BS.

Touchy leetle feller, ain't we.
I see Serban has noted that his dyno data concerning the spacers is questionable by virtue of another run, which would render the data pretty useless concerning the spacer issue, indeed. However, if I understand what you (Domiken)wrote, taking off the cai end tube wouldn't address the spacer issue very well, so I just don't get how your proposed test would lend evidence. That being said, the charts I saw on the spacer site seemed pretty darned conclusive for the DE and other engines, which is what led me to the decision to use them on my VE. They're still there. And at a hundred bux a pop I agree you'd be nuts to burn up a month's salary tearing apart and putting back together again. And it is a bitch, especially when in the car. I put mine on while still on the stand and I'm not very interested at all in pulling mine back off, just because of that :-).

If I still had the spacers, I would have dynoed back to back with and without them. I have a guy locally who will let me use the dyno as many times as I want for close to nothing, so that wouldn't be a big deal now. However, I'd probably only give the differece in total HP, its a superflow dyno, and readings on it are considerably lower than what a dyno jet spits out, and most people would think my car has a serious hp problem :tongue: I **** next time I go, I will put the cold air intake on, just to see if it makes a difference or not.

Also the CAI I used is nothing more than my current custom WAI made by miko, a 90 degree bend, and an ebay high port WAI combined with 3 couplers, so I don't know how well the design works.

http://www.floridasr20s.com/gallery/albums/NX2000/DSC05031.jpg