please e-mail the SEB with the following proposal. Even if you don't drive a b14...the help would be nice...the more voices heard, the more noticed we get.

seb@scca.com


Hello,

I would like to submit for review the following moves from DSP to FSP:

- 1995-1998 Nissan 200SX SE-R
- 1998-1999 Nissan Sentra SE 2.0 - there was actually no '95-'97 Sentra 2.0L, as implied by the DSP line "Sentra 2.0L ('95-'99)"
- 2000-2001 Nissan Sentra SE 2.0

These three cars use essentially the same 2.0L SR20DE with five-speed drivetrain as the '91-'94 SE-R and '91-'93 NX2000 (both B13 chassis, now classed in FSP), but with a less potent chassis.

The '95-'98 SE-R and '98-'99 SE 2.0 (identical B14 chassis) are very similar mechanically to the B13, but switched to a rear beam axle setup in place of the rear trailing-link IRS found on the B13. Slightly less aggressive cam profiles were also used, but Nissan's stated factory output of 140hp and 132tq remained unchanged through 1999. The redline was reduced from 7500 RPM on the B13 to 7100 RPM, but Street Prepared rules allow modifications that can counter this change.

The 200SX SE-R was a two-door version of the Sentra. Same chassis, and all drivetrain and suspension parts are a direct swap. They could be classed on the same line for street prepared.

The B14 Sentra/200SX has similar weight, dimensions, and performance potential to the B13 Sentra/NX classified in FSP this year. The engine is almost identical, and the VLSD transmission and axles interchange with a B13 SE-R or NX2000. The front struts and many strut tower brace designs also interchange. For FSP purposes, the B14 generation is a very similar car to the B13, and its inclusion in the class would allow a greater number of owners to enjoy the FSP as with the earlier generation.

The '00-'01 Sentra SE 2.0L retained the SR20DE engine and optional five speed with viscous limit slip differential. This newer B15 chassis has front struts and a rear beam axle like the B14, but it's wheelbase and weight grew. The engine's head design changed slightly to a roller rocker cam follower setup, and it has a four-counterweight crank from the eight-counterweight crank used from '91-'99. The factory redline was reduced to 6600 RPM, and Nissan's stated hp changed to 145hp and 136tq from the factory.

Because of it's increased dimensions, the '00-'01 Sentra SE 2.0 is the least potent of the three generations of SR20DE vehicles. For that reason, I believe is should be reclassified as a FSP car, as well.

Thank you for your review!

Ugghh, I get really confused with SCCA classing, the club I run with most uses a different method entirely.

So this is moving down a class, what kind of competition is it going down from and whats the new competition like? I do the occasional SCCA event so I'm interested...

Basically, the SCCA decided to move the B13 SER/NX to FSP to be more competitive. It had been classed in DSP agaisnt RWD 325 bimmers, Fiat X 1/9 etc. What the SCCA did NOT do was re-class the B14 and B15 2.0 liter cars into FSP, which made no sense whatsoever and obviously was an oversight. But the SCCA is slow to fix goof-ups, so the more people that whine about it, the quicker they will fix their problem.
Ian

Okay, that makes complete sense. Especially since the B14/B15 are slightly less adept than the B13's are, it would make no sense to have them be classed higher.
I'll be sure to send an email!

I'm going against the grain here,but I like being in DSP.I drive a 96 B-14.It's locally and regionally competetive,and not that far back nationally.It will never be a national DSP champ,no matter who drives it.It does make a good mid to upper pack filler at Nats.I'm okay with it.On the National level in FSP,it's about the same.Now Pax-wise it would be a cheater car in FSP;locally and regionally.National -wise not so much.Look at the results from Nats the last couple of years.My #13 DSP car would be in about the same spot in either class,DSP vs FSP. I like the challenge,and chasing down bigger,faster,and more expensive cars is kinda my deal.:tongue:


Feel free to flame away...........


Sorry Ian,I'll still write a letter for ya.Just helping a brotha out.

I like the challenge,and chasing down bigger,faster,and more expensive cars is kinda my deal.:tongue:

Then run your car in XP. You'll definitely love the challenge of having no hope there.

Pat

At least in DSP,there's still hope.I'll take my finishes the last couple of years as hope.If I learn to drive better,there's a decent chance of a trophy finish.But,I'll drive it in whatever class it's in,have fun,and go on.:biggthump

Where did the 2.5 liter B15's land in Street Prepared?
DSP or FSP?

At least in DSP,there's still hope.I'll take my finishes the last couple of years as hope.If I learn to drive better,there's a decent chance of a trophy finish.But,I'll drive it in whatever class it's in,have fun,and go on.:biggthump

My co-driver won a tri-state DSP championship last season in my lowly now FSP B13, and to pretend to know why the SCCA moved the car is serious guesswork. Some would argue that the B14's have significantly better chassis rigidity stock than a B13, look at how many B14's like the Dog Car(s) you saw in the NASA Cup Series compared to B13's.

I don't agree with B15's being equal with the B13 2.0 SR20, either. They have for example in the B15 SE a final drive better for autocross, 4.437 vs. 4.176 for the B13. In the all-important 2nd gear that gives a B15 SE a ratio of 8.7 vs. 7.6 for the B13. The B13's gearing is a little too tall to really leverage the power in 2nd gear in most autocross courses. On really tight courses I've even downshifted and lost time in first gear because exiting a corner into a straight section I'd hit 55 mph by the next corner, where lugging it out in 2nd I'd be lucky to see 45 mph.

If you've ever hit the autocross course, you know what an extra 500+ rpm at same speed in same gear will do for an SR20DE in terms of keeping on top of the power. On my B13 it puts down less than 100 whp at 4400 rpm, by 5000 rpm it is almost 120 whp. With a B15 final drive, I'd be be seeing +20 whp at 25 mph over my current gear ratios, which cannot be changed in SP.

If that doesn't sound like much try running with your A/C on, that's just about -20 whp in that same 5000 rpm range.

Now the B14, IMHO, I just don't get. Why a B14 SE-R isn't in FSP esp given they dropped the LSD stock after a year or two is beyond me. :confused:

please e-mail the SEB with the following proposal. Even if you don't drive a b14...the help would be nice...the more voices heard, the more noticed we get.

seb@scca.com


Hello,

I would like to submit for review the following moves from DSP to FSP:

- 1995-1998 Nissan 200SX SE-R
- 1998-1999 Nissan Sentra SE 2.0 - there was actually no '95-'97 Sentra 2.0L, as implied by the DSP line "Sentra 2.0L ('95-'99)"
- 2000-2001 Nissan Sentra SE 2.0

These three cars use essentially the same 2.0L SR20DE with five-speed drivetrain as the '91-'94 SE-R and '91-'93 NX2000 (both B13 chassis, now classed in FSP), but with a less potent chassis.

IMHO you're splitting hairs here, chassis potential in SP is quite close. The B13's ISR is somewhat offset by lack of chassis rigidity, the center section of a B13 is really somewhat of a noodle. That's possibly why B13's land in HS vs. GS for newer B15's.


Slightly less aggressive cam profiles were also used, but Nissan's stated factory output of 140hp and 132tq remained unchanged through 1999. The redline was reduced from 7500 RPM on the B13 to 7100 RPM, but Street Prepared rules allow modifications that can counter this change.

True but you will also notice SCCA takes vehicle age into consideration as a likely indicator of wear, a 1998 200SX SE-R on average has up to 7 years less use over a B13, they make assumptions about the not too far-fetched idea that newer cars may have less miles and a fresher motor. Technically any JDM swap 10:1 or not isn't allowed since that motor wasn't sold with that head here in the states in many cases.

The B14 Sentra/200SX has similar weight, dimensions, and performance potential to the B13 Sentra/NX classified in FSP this year. The engine is almost identical, and the VLSD transmission and axles interchange with a B13 SE-R or NX2000.

Pardon my ignorance please but didn't the B14 even SE-R's lose the LSD trans after 1997? That might be a point furthering your case if true. In any case I think it helps to make your case as airtight as possible, no way they should have moved B13's and not B14 SE-R's to FSP.

The '00-'01 Sentra SE 2.0L retained the SR20DE engine and optional five speed with viscous limit slip differential. This newer B15 chassis has front struts and a rear beam axle like the B14, but it's wheelbase and weight grew. The engine's head design changed slightly to a roller rocker cam follower setup, and it has a four-counterweight crank from the eight-counterweight crank used from '91-'99. The factory redline was reduced to 6600 RPM, and Nissan's stated hp changed to 145hp and 136tq from the factory.

Here I don't agree, the RR motor can be made to run 7500 rpm with allowable ECU programming in SP. You cannot really make the argument on power, possibly on weight, but again chassis stiffness is better in the B15 SE.

Where it really matters is gearing - per my other post I'd drop a B15 SE trans in my car if I could in a minute. Stronger, more favorable final drive, and of course newer than my 145k 1991 OEM trans.

Because of it's increased dimensions, the '00-'01 Sentra SE 2.0 is the least potent of the three generations of SR20DE vehicles. For that reason, I believe is should be reclassified as a FSP car, as well.

Man you had better watch who you say that around ;)

Also you should look at what else is in FSP, if anything honestly the mistake was moving the B13 to FSP, not failing to drag all others along with it. I have slightly more than 140 whp in 2400 lbs and some of my FSP competition is:

- 1980 Triumph Spitfire which has I think a whopping 70 whp over its stock 53 hp. Weight is still almost 1900 lbs. Last event he was 3 seconds off class FTD, on a 38 second course.

- 95 Dodge Neon ACR which pre-season was announced as FSP but currently "Dodge Neon (ALL) " in SP are DSP, not FSP. Esp not an ACR!

- Chevy Cobalt (which again is messed up, it's an SS NA car and the owner entered it FSP despite "Cobalt SS Naturally aspirated 2005-2007 DSP"). In fact all the Cobalts even with SC or Turbo are DSP!

So short story is show up and race, I chose not to protest these cars since no one else has after 4-5 events, I'd rather just beat them than rain on their mis-classed parade at a non-SCCA sanctioned club event.

I will def support your email but not for the B15 SE, I would kill for that kind of reduction in final drive, it is right in the sweet spot where it really matters.