What Rockwood said.

Hawk Blues are a fine choice. I used them for many years. Carbotech used to make them up for me in 549's, but now have their own compounds in our sizes which also get high marks. Mitsubishi 484's expand compound choices.

For those of you doing track days and reading this don't even think about using Blues or any race pad on the street. You will have to change them out. Your rotors will get damaged and street stopping distances will increase if you don't.

Fortunately pad technology is always moving. All of the friction materials manufacturers are in a race of their own. One holy grail of special interest to trackers is a pad that can handle all temperature ranges. One that works on the street and track.

Carbone Lorraine or CL and EBC(!) appear to have pads with that capability. Carbone Lorraine, a giant in the friction materials industry, is known for making brakes for the high speed Euro trains and aircraft. Motorcycle roadracers also know the brand as CL. They have been in that market for a bit and have been well received.

EBC, which has not had good track vibes here in the past as Rockwood alluded to in another post, appears to now have a wide temperature range compound in d549 and d540. It's a new "yellow" compound which has been much touted (at British tracks).

Supposedly it's a race pad that works well on the street! You don't have to change it! Sounds too good to be true.

If anyone uses the EBC yellow compound this season, please come back to this thread and post your thoughts. Your information could be especially helpful to anyone doing track days.

Racers on the other hand should already know what works. It's race only pads, period.

Phil

Hawk Blues are notoriously abrasive on rotors. Are any of the other PFC compounds available for use with the adv22f calipers?

2nd on the Hawk blues. Never again on a set of brakes on any of my cars, rotor eaters.

Supposedly it's a race pad that works well on the street! You don't have to change it! Sounds too good to be true.
...
Racers on the other hand should already know what works. It's race only pads, period.

Phil

I'll agree with both of the above. Hawk HP+ I believe were supposed to be a street pad suitable for track day use, I found they threw a lot of dust day to day, didn't work very well on the track, and all around were the worst of all worlds - mediocre for performance use, dirty, and expensive. Hawk Blues would have been better but rotor consumption is an issue.

Just the small difference on paper from Ferodo Street/Track 2500's to their track 3000's is huge in use. I swap out the 2500's for 3000's on my Wilwood fronts, they are much more effective. A lot more bite, I can brake much later, and they are more resistant to high temps. Over time, I cooked the Ferodo 2500's which at least were pretty inexpensive for a good pad. I'm not really hard on my brakes, either, just the opposite.

This is the old set vs. new 2500's, what the pic does not really show is the pad compound is starting to break down I assume due to heat, these saw a lot of track miles from May to Aug and I used them on the street. I got my wear out of them, they worked well, but not as well on the track as 3000's.

http://www.sr20forum.com/gallery/data/1512/DSC00274CR.jpg

I would never go back to a street/track pad compound for track use, it would have to be made from ground Unicorn Horn before I believe it would work as well. Maybe Carbotech is there, but for the 15 minutes it takes to pull the cotter pin on a Wilwood 4-pot front and slide in new pads, not worth it.

I think you also have to differentiate what kind of event you're doing. Mass start (unless you are in front) you may not get the kind of solo straight shot that you do in TT for corners, where braking is completely your decision and not the guy in front of you. In that case you need something with more bite you can apply later, and it doesn't really have to hold up to 60 minutes continuous use. Higher coefficient of friction => later braking => more time at speed.

Always interested to hear other's experiences, so far I am not surprisingly finding track use only pads work best. The 3000's I'd never use on the street, and even the 2500's you need to keep in mind when you've been cruising on the hwy, cool early morning, haven't touched the brakes for quite awhile, and then you need them. They take just a bit longer to get to op temp.

EDIT: not sure these are applicable for the OP, sorry - adv22f - there is a DS2500 listed for the UK 200SX that has the right pad shape unlike mine, FCP600H but I don't know if they are the right model. And I assume the Wilwoods may not be an option depending on what you're racing.

On my adv22f brakes on the other car I run Carbotechs, I'd have to check which ones. Night and day difference between that and the Wilwoods, even though both cars have the upgraded MC, SS lines, etc.

Steve, You made a lot of good points.

Agree completely with your Hawk HPS+ remarks.

You said "I think you also have to differentiate what kind of event you're doing."

Agree, completely again.

Would also add, it's really the starting point for pad selection.

For those of us with OE calipers, we now have some good choices for racing, tracking and that halfway point, too. Those with Wilwoods like yourself, have an even greater choice of pads to select from.

Go on any friction materials site and you see a wide array of compounds.

Why?

Well, pads that will help you put in a winning lap at time trial will be different from what you need to last a 4hr enduro or even for a trackday. Something you obviously understand.

Interestingly, the pad that gives you the combination of best bite and modulation (very important) for a few hot laps or qualifying, may well be the compound that will be toast at the end of a track or raceday.

Are we becoming that specialized with pads? Well, I hate to say it, but at Lime Rock and other tracks, I've seen pad compounds changed just for the TT session. And just for the reasons you stated. Yes, everyone is looking for that special edge. Autocross and TT folks especially, are always looking to pick up thousandths of a second wherever they can.

It is interesting how in the last decade and a half or so, slowing the car has gotten some serious attention. I used to have to get race pads made and now places like Carbotech and Porterfield can pull them off the shelf for our cars and you have an array of compounds to chose from.

Once your equipment is up to snuff, knowing how to use the brakes is key to winding up on the podium. But it doesn't come naturally. At least that's what I've seen from riding with even experienced drivers some who have or had comp licenses. In the hot lap mode I seen even these drivers leaving time on the table in the braking zone.

Are you (generic you, not you personally) one of them? The way to tell is to get someone in the car to give you feedback. I dislike the term instructor. Prefer coach. Get one in with you because it's the quick way to lower lap times unless you have a data logger and know how to read it.

In road racing, classes make cars largely equal. How to do drivers overtake? They do it with the brakes!

Phil

Great points Phil. So true, I found that out early w/re to competing on tracks like Pocono North where I am at a power deficit to some cars in class and have the long banking straight, I gain so much back not braking at all for Turn 1 off the banking, then braking very gradually and late for the real first turn (#2). The longer time at max speed I see pays back big dividends the later I lift, the later I can brake and still maintain good control and momentum through the infield turns. It took a bud showing me 105+ mph in my own car into turn one, on street tires, to convince me I was being a pansy the way I drove it.

Tracks like NHMS in TT mode I can think of only really 2-3 points where braking is as critical, because it's even more of a momentum conservation track for lower powered cars. The tightness of much of the course makes cars like ST4-level Miatas more competitive against my car, my power difference is not so much of an advantage. Speed at turn in end of the straight is probably 10-20 mph lower than most other places I've run, the only other really significant braking areas I can think of are to set up the car for turn 9, and again into turn 11/12. But that last one really sets up a lower powered car's max speed on the straight, and it's all braking and traction that determines how fast you can exit given the right line.

That's where I really noticed the friction of the compound differences, harder braking in shorter distances, first with the DS2500's. I'd also run up to 60 minute practice sessions at tracks like NJMP, instead of the usual 20-30 minutes. Ferodos over the Hawk HP+ (well, and brakes, fluids) made a huge difference in that I could stay out there for as long as I wanted and on Lightning, for example, brake at the last marker very briefly for turn one, I'd never even lift for the whole 0.5 mile straight until inside the second to last marker range. I needed a lot of braking in a really short period of time to set the nose and get a little rotation going up the hill over turn 1, but with good enough modulation I didn't lock up any wheels or bleed more speed off than I needed to.

Last season I improved a lot in how much space you pull back on potentially much faster cars, and esp faster and heavier cars during practice sessions. I had a last gen M5 blocking me at NH one session in August, of course had 3x the power and even power to weight maybe 50-70% more. But even with good tires, likely stock brakes or near stock, combination of better lateral traction and far better braking I finally got around the guy, that should never happen with a good driver in that car. He had the tools and while some disadvantage in weight on that course, he wasn't using them well. Using his brakes a lot and too soon, too much. IMHO no way a street legal FWD B13 with 140 whp should stick with and pass a well-driven E39, unless he was having some real problems like cooking his fluid or far exceeding his pad's temps.

Your point about more specialization is a good one, I notice the Ferodo 2500/3000 pads don't last that long, I burn through them fairly quickly - if I was running a 4 hour enduro, I'd want a new or nearly new set or more likely a different pad. Other people run Hawk Blues or various Carbotech pads in wheel to wheel racing all season. I get still very good heat resistance, great modulation, and with the 3000's esp, fantastic bite from high speed, late braking. Pad life is less, but they don't cost that much and are dirt simple to replace quickly.

TT you may get as little as a half lap to warm up the tires and brakes, 2 timed laps and some cool-down, you need things to work really well very quickly from a cold start. A lot like qualifying laps, but with less warm-up time on course. With some very good coaching last year I knocked off about a second a lap personal best each outing for three TT's on Pocono North, two class W's and a 2nd place. Motor power didn't change, tires got worse (same set with a lot of use) but times went down - a lot - mostly due to the brake choices and better use of what I had. I will admit it's satisfying to beat on the same drivers who sneer at my car as somehow an old econobox, but it's mostly only the very fast cars I cannot touch. It helps that as I gain more seat time and confidence given that the car pulled 0.96g's on a skidpad on the same Nitto tires back when Dave C owned it. It's far more capable than I am. Better drivers would routinely get in it and very quickly push it harder than I was, just because I didn't know. I was more than willing to find its limits, they are just way out there from what I expected.

Now it gets harder though, the worse you suck, the easier it is to improve, the more you improve, the less you suck, etc. - same old story ;)

Interestingly Steve, when your car went on ebay I was tempted to bid on it. When the auction ended, like many I wondered where it went. Was plenty happy to learn from your posts on this forum that Coleman's sun bleached ride was going to add to the count of B13's now disappearing (rusting away) from the great North East. Even better was seeing that you were putting it on the track and were not going to be shy about providing detailed posts about your doings with this most well known SER.

Often when a magazine feature car is sold it falls off the end of the earth. It disappears for decades until it shows up again usually on ebay! This, was a best case scenario for your car and a real bonus for our community here. Yes, if you're keeping what you know and do with your car close to home, you're not doing anyone here any good. Just saying...

Ok, some thoughts about time trialing (TT) and specialization.

While we were talking pads, judging from your setup, your biggest gain will come with a tire change if you are on street tires. A sticky autocross compound used for just your timed laps could be worth a second or more. Consider them qualifying tires and use them for just that, or they will not last. Have another set for just doing track days. Specialization? Extra cost? Definitely! But if you want to win....

The Tunnells (Google them) had some interesting things to say about tire size that may apply to your application. Go too big and you may not build in enough heat in the laps you have to maximize the traction you paid for in a 225 or larger.

I'd suggest laying down some baseline times with your set up and borrowing larger tires and see what you get. It's the only way to know for sure if wider is better for YOUR particular application.

Back to pads: Coming off the banking at Pocono North at over 100 requires immediate threshold braking the moment the car is straight along with heel/toeing down two gears. In those moments, initial bite and good modulation is everything in a pad. Not always easy to find. But with Wilwoods you can pick from Ferodo's excellent line up. It sounds like you have found exactly what works for your set up.

I would add that time trialers using race pads may have to get some heat in the pads for them to be there on that first heavy application or after cooling on a long straight. Remember we're talking just a few laps here.

At Pocono North, some find touching the brakes lightly with the left foot (right foot still planted) before going into that 100+mph infield sweeper will settle the car nicely and get a tad of heat in the pads so they will be "there" moments later when you use threshold braking to take almost every ounce of velocity out of the car. The bonus with that technique is that you pretty much know the brakes will be there for that big moment. The more you do this stuff, the more you will see the value in avoiding oh sh*t moments.

Getting full race pads up to temperature is an issue too, for road racers. Before going green you see how everyone is working the car to get heat in the tires. The smart guys have also warmed their pads so they will be there for that first application into turn one. Full race pads take a few applications to "come in." In club racing, many of the first turn "bumping" incidents you see are caused by cold race pads as well as tires.

I mentioned heel/toe. It goes hand in hand with braking. Heel/toe is a required skill for racing, tracking and TT. You can't put in a quick lap without mastering it. For readers who have not perfected this part of their trackcraft, don't wait until a track day to learn heel/toe. Teach yourself and practice on the street until you can do it in your sleep. If your feet have problems with the pedals, you may have to build up your brake pedal before it begins to feel right.

Shoes which have some feel through the soles will be helpful. Be warned. Most racing shoes are just awful to walk in. Don't even think about it. And so-called driving shoes that work well for walking, usually have soles too thick to feel the pedals. Save your money. Thin rubber soled loafers or worn out running shoes can be a good inexpensive solution unless you are required to be in nomex socks and SFI rated shoes.

In a world where advertising is tempting you to believe the car makes the difference not the driver, you have discovered something else from your track escapades: Namely that it is the driver, not the car, that makes all the difference. A small, fun car like ours in the hands of a capable driver is often quicker than a much faster car in the hands of someone who doesn't quite know what they are doing. It's always fun when your skill allows you to reel in and get by supposedly "faster" cars.

Lastly, if you are looking for setup help this season, the East Coast MK (vs. the West Coast MK) is right in your neck of the woods. I'm talking about Matt Kessler. (Kessler Engineering) Matt was responsible for building and developing Greg Amy's ITA runoff winning NX2000. He's a superb machinist, welder, race engineer and genuine out of the box thinker. He's also a good guy who knows our cars inside out and will tell you exactly what to do to go fast. Most worthy of your support, if you have not already tapped him for assistance.

I'm sure at some point this season our paths will cross at a track somewhere. Until then, have fun and keep your thoughts coming.

Phil

Yep, no wallflower that car. Not looking so sun-bleached anymore and never sees salt or snow on the roads, worst it sees is getting stuck outside for awhile as cars rotate in and out of the garage. 3 years here in NE this month and no rust. Nada. Have a new dash for it in mint shape to replace the cracked one, it's still a mixed use car so I want it in good shape.

http://homepage.mac.com/stracy01/.Pictures/B13_OCT2008/B13_OCT2008_03.jpg

I take almost every mod or maintenance task and take bucket of pics, used to put them here (http://homepage.mac.com/stracy01/projectb13/Menu160.html) until Apple shut down that site for new content, now I post to my Picasa account (skylinegtr01) or Photobucket, etc.

My second set of tires I just mounted in Oct are the NT-01's that Dave used once. They are now 3 years old, they will probably work pretty well but have a limited life given they're not the stickiest tire out there and have some use and some sitting. The K1's sure give a panda effect, may have to paint those wheels -

http://www.sr20forum.com/gallery/data/1512/thumbs/DSC00261CR.jpg (http://www.sr20forum.com/gallery/showphoto.php/photo/20014)

You know that course well, braking starts almost immediately past the turn in point time-wise with very light left foot braking, esp when it's cool out (like last August, 50 deg and dense fog. Until I bumped my springs up 100 lbs each end with new dampers to match I had more issues with too much nose weight transfer.

I rotate a few pairs of Piloti Prototipo's, and you may recall DC put a larger center plate on the brake so LF braking and heel-toe is much easier. Car has a R32 GT-R wheel so the hands and feet are very happy. I drove my second car with a stock B13 wheel and was amazed at how bad it was, it lasted a week (got another donor JDM wheel, R32 GT-S wheel, same except for the center horn, bolts right up). You can sort of see the pedal here, I find that really helpful given the wide spacing (now I have a horn center button, too, lol) -

http://homepage.mac.com/stracy01/.Pictures/B13/SE-RintF.jpg

I keep hearing many good things about Matt K, and yes he's not too far away at all, Chris S had many good things to say about him, too. Sounds like a top notch Wizard-level guy, I am sure our paths will cross sometime.

Thanks for the tips and feedback, as always much appreciated! :biggthump

So is there a hawk xref for a 1995 200sx ser for the rear?

Pads for the rear (stock 200sx, B14)?

Pads for the rear (stock 200sx, B14)?

Napa/autozone/whatevers.

Are we becoming that specialized with pads? Well, I hate to say it, but at Lime Rock and other tracks, I've seen pad compounds changed just for the TT session. And just for the reasons you stated. Yes, everyone is looking for that special edge. Autocross and TT folks especially, are always looking to pick up thousandths of a second wherever they can.


Are you (generic you, not you personally) one of them? The way to tell is to get someone in the car to give you feedback. I dislike the term instructor. Prefer coach. Get one in with you because it's the quick way to lower lap times unless you have a data logger and know how to read it.


Definatly. I was having a pad discussion the other day that made me think of this thread and something else that hasn't been discussed. Track layout vs car set up. See below.



Your point about more specialization is a good one, I notice the Ferodo 2500/3000 pads don't last that long, I burn through them fairly quickly - if I was running a 4 hour enduro, I'd want a new or nearly new set or more likely a different pad. Other people run Hawk Blues or various Carbotech pads in wheel to wheel racing all season. I get still very good heat resistance, great modulation, and with the 3000's esp, fantastic bite from high speed, late braking. Pad life is less, but they don't cost that much and are dirt simple to replace quickly.



So my take on pad compound selection comes down to trial and error. It's going to vary by track also. Take my 2 home tracks: Mid-Ohio is technical and flowing with only one really big braking zone and several smaller ones or BeaveRun which is more like 2 drag strips with heavy braking zones at the end of them ( basically 40ish seconds apart). At Mid-Ohio on Hoosiers I can run a less agressive pad. BR is a killer on brakes. I got them so hot once to melt the piston boots! I currently run the XP10s because of this. Now the only thing I've found is that the 10's are a bit much for a street tire like the Azenis. Like anything else with racing, it's all balance!

I find the same. Out here on NHMS after a few weekends I really wasn't going through that much pad and temps coming in were very reasonable. But Pocono North Course, the braking is late and a lot, laps are short, so you are hitting that same spot about every minute and some change. The two hardest braking zones are only one turn apart, that's where the 3000's work great. The first real corner take that drag strip, bank it and make it wide enough for 4 cars, then funnel all that down to one very sharp turn with very high entrance speed. Sigh...what a blast.

So i see lots of people talking about the Hawk Blues.. My pop just picked up a set of Hawk Yellows (the ceramic ones) for his Celica GTS. He likes them alot.

Any word if these (Hawk yellows)would fit the NX brakes. They have a number for the Eclipse (213Z.626) so the dimensions between the blues and these seem to be the same, just different material. I am debating getting these for mine NX?

I wouldn't trust the Hawk Yellow Ceramics for track duty myself... The are not rated for track duty

Just to add. Of special note for Ad22vf guys.
I have been hearing lots of really great things about the Raybestos st-43 compound
Not the cheapest option. I have seen people talk about 20-30 hrs of track use out of a set. I prob dont do that in a season.

Read up here: Our resident brake expert MadMatt comments on them.
http://www.roadraceautox.com/showthread.php?t=28952

price for those is what keeps me away