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Been lots of discussion of Autox vs RR on the SoCal SERCA list on the convention topic. I have been relatively vocal in it myself. Since there are more autocrossers here, most have been RR off the list in SoCal, I am going to cross post my last comment on the subject to see what you people think? Am I right?
Its just for discussion.
Every time this topic comes up it becomes heated and turns into a
mugging of the autocrossers because most of the SE-R autocrossers
have given up on this list anyway or just keep their mouths shut
because they've been there and done that already(put me there). This
list has become the personal message board for the SOW gang. Now
lots of good stuff does happen on this list but you have to filter it
all the time. I actually kind of like it and even with Boonie's,
Terrin's, and CAG's off color comments included it gives that hommie
feeling, except when I'm being mugged for all the wrong reasons.
My posts have never been that autocrossing is better than road
racing. If you read back you will find that I usually only post
opportunities for SERCA members to autocross. RR and AX don't have
to be mutually exclusive. In fact AX's happen so often that you can
usually do quite a bit of both if you want and many I mean many
dedicated autox'rs RR quite frequently, at HDPE's and SOLO1's which
is considered Autocrossing but is more like HDPE's but timed. In
fact we are trying to get the SOLO I program restarted.
But the people who get serious about the each sport have different
types of personalities. Now I'm talking about SCCA Solo II and the
Track day types not the SE-R Cup drivers, or other WW types as they
are different in their own way. This is just my observations over
the last three years but Autox'rs tend to be more intense and detail
oriented and more into measured goals, and tangible results that put
everything into it's nice neat place. Our events are much more
structured, they happen every month, there are large numbers of
drivers often 250 plus. There are national level events happening all
the time, it's Big Time Like Racing but on a lower scale of
commitment for some.
Oh yeah we are competitive, not in your normal sense, but in a sick
sort of way. You will hear many autocrossers say they are just
looking for improvement, but you won't hear that from the serious
types, we hate losing by even .001sec. Losing is losing and if you
don't come in first what's the point.
This leads to the intensity level. We dig the high octane short
duration intense concentration of an autocross run. If you road
raced with the same level of concentration required to make the
perfect autox run you would wear out very quickly. At the top levels
of RR this is nescessary also but once again in spurts not for your
entire competitive time on the track. I personally have a short
attention span, I can never complete the endurance courses in Gran
Turismo, I keep losing my concentration once I get out front and end
up doing something stupid.
Unfortunately this takes a lot of time, and serious autocrossers are
often spending hours at the site for just a few minutes of track time.
But for everyone one of those people (and we are very thankful for
them) there are 10 drivers who come out, walk the course go to
breakfast, come back work their 45 min session and get their runs,
pick up their trophy from the previous event, talk to their friends
they see every month for a while, and then go home, usually just a
couple of fun hours once a month with some spice thrown in. For most
this is the attraction of Autocross, its the competition and the
friends you make. That's probably why Clay hasn't autocrossed here
much in SoCal because that connection he made with his family was
missing in the big regions. Unfortunate, but he just didn't meet the
right people, hopefully he'll give it another chance.
The track day only people, like most of the SoCal SERCA members are
less structured, and more car oriented. Naturally since this is
about SE-R's (even those SPEC V's I suppose) They are typically
younger or younger thinking, and like to get their fix's in large
doses but less frequently. You are more likely to hear them talk
about how fast their car was today rather than how fast they were.
Both types though will blame their car if they don't go fast! lol
I really can't say a lot more because I never have the time to go to
a track day. Competing at the National level is very time consuming
as is any structured form of competition. The track days almost
always conflict with autocross events in which I'm competing for year
end awards and because we have 4 of the Top Ten Drivers in the Nation
in my class (I'm not one of them nor is Matt) locally, I can't afford
to miss one event or practice.
But the point I've been trying to make, as is Matt in his own way, is
that Autox can be a viable alternative to track days to hone your
skills so that we you do get your track days in they will be even
better. Mike K even would agree that any time on the track is better
than no time and seat time no matter what type will make you better.
So for a $20 points card you get a number and the right to come out
to any of the 13 annual events and get some seat time for $20 per
event, and do the 12 other practice days held which give you even
more seat time or the three schools 1 ladies and two open. And if
you think this won't make you faster when you are out a SOW, I sorry
you are wrong and not thinking clearly.
One more thing, Mike K I disagree with you about which is better for
accident avoidance on the street. How often do you go 100 mph on the
street? If you do it often you are an idiot and likely to kill
someone else. Autocross speeds are limited to Hiway speeds which is
more typical to street driving and require precise, brake and
steering control. And when I mean steering control I mean putting
your car within 1" or less of the apex cone at 30 mph while setting
up for a cross turn. Just like braking and swerving in a real life
situation. To say otherwise is just delusional. If RR was better
why do all the Police driver training and other schools use autocross
type courses for teaching. Track Days are good for practice for
racing on a track, though any type of racing I feel is good
experience for the street, autocrossing by far is more applicable.
Sorry for the article, but I had too. I will continue to try get you
guys out to an autocross, and I plan on being there for the Track Day
at the convention and if you need some help I will do what I can.
Plus being the competitive SOB that I am, I want to show you what a
prepared STS SE-R can do and also a somewhat less prepared
autocrosser.
Autocrossing sucks. 3 minutes 30 seconds of 2nd gear track time is hardly worth a day of my life. Thats the main reason I gave up on autocrossing. BTW, that was the longest post I have ever seen in my life.
Autocrossing sucks. 3 minutes 30 seconds of 2nd gear track time is hardly worth a day of my life. Thats the main reason I gave up on autocrossing. BTW, that was the longest post I have ever seen in my life.
Someone's ego need a hug, Steve?
Like it or not, we all have our scenes and usually defend them to no end. I autocross *a lot* but rarely hit the track. It's just more a result of my location (no road courses within 4-5 hours) than anything else.
If I had a track like Willow Springs within 2 hours of me, then most likely I'd be heavy into roadracing. C'est la vie.
To each his own, I say. However, that doesn't give anyone the right to dismiss the other person's preferences due to ignorance (proper use of the word).
I like all racing. i just want to redline my car. roadracing, autocross, drag racing, it all puts a smile on my face, who cares about whats better, as long as you enjoy it.
Actually, I was 1/2 kidding and 1/2 serious. I do dislike the time invested/time on track ratio. Other then that it is a lot of fun. Who cares what I or anybody else thinks. If you like something then don't look to others for approval just do it. Drifting, autocrossing, HPDE/track time, racing whatever floats your boat. Why this guy is trying to resolve some percieved conflict between road racing and autocrossing I don't know. It's honestly pointless.
Why this guy is trying to resolve some percieved conflict between road racing and autocrossing I don't know. It's honestly pointless.
Amen to that! I happen to know most of the SoCal SERCA guys personally, and its mainly a matter of preference. They prefer to do hotlapping over autocrossing. Simple as that. If they don't want to autocross, then so be it.
__________________
--ATP
2007 Mazdaspeed 3
"Money is something you need in case you don't die tomorrow."
Autocrossing sucks. 3 minutes 30 seconds of 2nd gear track time is hardly worth a day of my life. Thats the main reason I gave up on autocrossing. BTW, that was the longest post I have ever seen in my life.
(shrug) I dunno ... I can't remember a single time I've come off track with my hands shaking. But it has happened quite a few times when autocrossing.
For me, road racing has usually been 2-3 laps of excitement followed by 10+ laps of boredom (and if you're open tracking, what's the excitement of "racing" against your own shadow?). I still prefer the competition aspect of autocross ... I love the challenge of just having to get it done in three minutes or less.
AutoX and RR compliment each other. Some of the best road racers I know got started in autox. The skills they developed there paid huge dividends when they started road racing. I think anyone that skips out on autoX before road racing has missed out...or should go and try it out (competitively)
And theres no doubt that track time has helped my autoX (and vice versa) I think a good driver will be one who is experienced at both.
__________________
01 Sentra SE/PP
K&N filter,Yokohama ES100's (street), Toyo RA-1 on Team Dynamic 15" for track, Brullen exhaust, Koni's, Eibach Pro-Kits, Stillen header, Nismo rear anti-roll bar
'95 SE-R #200 Castrol CTCC Touring.
Here's my opinion on this subject on the difference between road racers and autocrossers. It's VERY similar to band competitions...
In HS, I played the clarinet in a concert band. Twice a year or more we would go to national or regional competitions, during which there would be two parts.
The first part was the prepared pieces that you have been working on for the past 3,4, 6 months (including a "warm up" piece/lap...). We would practice those pieces until we knew them cold, hot, and tepid.
The second part of the competition was sightreading. We were all led into a room where we were handed a piece of music that none of us had seen before. We had 10 minutes to look over the piece, during which no instruments were to emit a note. At the end of 10 minutes, we would perform that piece for the judges cold. (We were allowed to use our voices and often we would hum through the piece in time... i.e. a walkthrough...)
There were two types of people that shined in these competitions. Those that could perform a prepared piece to perfection, time and time again under any conditions because they have practiced it relentessly. But often they would have difficulty sightreading, simply because they required practice to really know a piece.
And then there were the people that I hated... who could pick up any piece at any time and play it perfectly the second or third time they saw it. They sometimes suffered from consistency, in that, while they could play the piece perfectly once doesn't mean they could replicate the performance whenever asked.
The practice people are the natural roadracers and the sightreading people are the natural autocrossers. Those that can incorporate the best qualities of both are the ones who excel in both.
Why does everyone want to read into the choice of an individual liking or disliking autocrossing vs roadcourse stuff? Those are big assumptions you guys are making. I think that is perhaps one of the things that fans the flames of this argument. So I like road course stuff. I seldom get stuck in a train any longer and usually get pointed by. It's a blast. I love getting pointed by a Corvette or some other fast car. I don't like the cost and renting a hotel. I don't like the personal risk to myself and car. Autocrossing is a lot of fun. The 45secs behind the wheel seems like a lot longer. It is very challenging and lots of concrete feedback on how you did. I don't like that it takes all day for a small amount of track time, I don't like some of my local competitors that I know are cheating. That’s about it. In the end my car is set up better for road racing then autocross so that is what I do the most. If I could truly have a dual purpose car (ie: 240) then I might do both. Even then I doubt I would do much autocrossing. I prefer to spend the weekends I am not at the track with my wife. That’s kind of the deal we made. So turning this autocrossing/roadracing thing into a personality test is very faulty in my opinion.
I like autocrossing for all the fun reasons: I get to hang out with my friends, it's cheap (unless you do a national), and it's something to do when there isn't a track school to go to.
I am no longer serious about autocrossing because of the time and money investment needed to be very good just doesn't match well with the seat time you get. I used to be quite good, when I autocrossed 25 times a year. Now I do ~9-10 a year and the other 15 weekends I'm at the track. Consequently, I'm not so good at the autocross anymore.
I see skills from both areas useful in daily driving. Certainly the speeds and manuvers in auto-x are more similar to daily driving. But I look farther ahead on track than I do on an autocross course and find myself doing that on the street as well.
I started out Autocrossing, like many others. After a couple of years, though, I grew to dislike the work-to-race ratio, i.e. six hours at the track for four minutes of seat time. In addition, I can't "sight read" very well, so can't get much feedback on my lines and gives no opportunity to practice. It did teach me a lot about car control and tires, though.
At an HPDE, you get lots of track time and they hire others to do corner work. You normally don't get an opportunity to walk the track beforehand, but the sessions are so numerous and long that it's a non-issue. The track is also wider, giving more options for the corner.
I can't say that autocross sucks, rather I think I've outgrown it. Give me road race track ANY day of the week.
__________________
Bruce in Houston
1990 Acura Legend LS, stock (so far)
1994 Nissan Sentra SE-R (original owner) w/ $tuff, converting to ITA (even more $tuff)
1998 Suzuki Bandit1200S w/ $tuff, W.W.B.O.C. #101
2002 Dodge Dakota tow beast, stock! RIP swwwinger
I like both, racing is fun. AutoX is easier for me to do in the Chicagoland area. The local track is 20 mins away. I don't mind the working part, it helps with a tan! The competition is great, and it's cheap.
If I had a track near by and if the midwest serca had anything going on at all I would be there! I love RR, and wish I could do it more!
__________________
2000 Sentra SE-T
2005 Pathfinder SE
FS 2004 Jetta GLI
Where did this whole thing start? I think the whole argument is stupid, personally. I autocross, and I do open track days. There isn't one I prefer over the other. I enjoy pushing both myself and the car to the limits. I have learned a very large amount about driving from both. I do open track days with a good portion of the people I autocross with. Getting pointed by by a Porsche is equally rewarding to me as *finally* nailing that Chicago box on your last run to me.
Good friends, good fun with cars. That's really what it's all about. There's little or no monetary reward. Once you get lost in the competetion, it's time to take a step back and re-evaluate why you started.
__________________
Matt
97 SE-R - Daily driver - winter beater - autox - track slut - drag car - summer cruiser
First touched the keys @ 16 miles, now 150,000+
Boosted as of 11/15/05
"Youth is fleeting, but immaturity can last forever."
I started out Autocrossing, like many others. After a couple of years, though, I grew to dislike the work-to-race ratio, i.e. six hours at the track for four minutes of seat time. In addition, I can't "sight read" very well, so can't get much feedback on my lines and gives no opportunity to practice. It did teach me a lot about car control and tires, though.
At an HPDE, you get lots of track time and they hire others to do corner work. You normally don't get an opportunity to walk the track beforehand, but the sessions are so numerous and long that it's a non-issue. The track is also wider, giving more options for the corner.
I can't say that autocross sucks, rather I think I've outgrown it. Give me road race track ANY day of the week.
Could you afford to do a track day every month or perhaps twice a month. Some can most can't. That is the point I was trying to make, Matt has it right, he loves to RR but he knows that AX is still seat time and will make him a better driver.
That was the point I was trying to get through. Even though you prefer to do track days, there isn't a SERCA track day every month and even if there was you couldn't afford to do it. So why not autocross on the weekend that you are RR'ing. Except for family obligations, I would much rather autocross than watch football on Sunday. Most of the SoCal crowd looks down at autox as parking lot racing in 2nd gear, without even trying it or only trying it once.
In SoCal between LA, SD and Arizona you could autocross, every weekend if you wanted to. Why not fill in some in between RR weekends with some autocross?
Why not fill in some in between RR weekends with some autocross?
Because its still time taken away from other activities. At some point you have to say "enough". For me (only speaking for myself) I don't get much return on my time investment with autocrossing.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trys_Hard
Most of the SoCal crowd looks down at autox as parking lot racing in 2nd gear, without even trying it or only trying it once.
Who cares what others think of autocrossing. Why are you trying to convince them its good. If they don't like it then leave them alone.
I have weekly obligations on Sunday during football season.
And, as I said, I don't care for the work-to-race time ratio. Any more, my autocrossing would be an off-the-cuff decision and I would be driving my tow vehicle since the SE-R hasn't been started in a year-and-a-half.
