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The next mentionable upgrade for my shoestring STS SE-R is either going to be Progress sways or 205/50-15 Azenis on 15x7" wheels. One or the other, but not both any time soon. Which would you get?
Here's what I currently have:
- Hyperco G2's on AGXes
- Rear ES control arm bushings
- Front and rear strut tower braces
- 195/60-14 Azenis on NX2000 wheels
Also, what about tire staggering on my car as-is with stock swaybars? Two 205/50-15 Azenis front with 195/60-14 rear would put off spending the extra $350 for a full set of 15's until I wore out my 14's. Stock class FWD drivers often run a wider tire up front (say, 225mm with 205mm rear). I'm thinking it could make a nice study in rotation and cheapness.
If I were you I would get the progress bars and wait till the current tires are finished before buying new wheels and tires. Especially considering you have stock bars and hypercos, you will be experiencing quite a bit of understeer. Looking at your list of mods, I would go with front control arm bushings too.
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Climate Change skeptics are the new Flat Earth Society
the sway bars will make a huge difference and allow you to get rid of understeer. They made such a huge difference on my car with the AGXs and Hypercos that I needed the bar to take advantage of the suspension. Use up the current tires and and then look at new wheels and tires.
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-Zack
-'91 SE-R, Aztec Red: JWT Pop-Charger, Fidanza Flywheel, JWT PP w/01 SE disc. AGXs w/GC coilovers (300/279) & C/C plates. NX2K Brakes w/Carbotech pads & Crown SS lines. Progress rear sway bar. Active Tuning RSTB, ES Bushings & motor mounts.
One thing that rarely gets mentioned is alignment specs, especially for the rear. I honestly don't remember what my front toe-in is set at (1/16?), but I do remember I have the rear toe set at 1/32 toe-out. This setting probably made as much of a difference as the Progress rear bar.
why don't you do some 205's on a 15x7 wheel on the front of the car only, and with the money you saved on not buying the rear wheels get the front swaybar?
the rear swaybar won't do you a damn bit of good until you get that thing a little flatter. once that inside rear tire is airborne your rear roll stiffness goes to zero. the front swaybar will make the car handle a lot flatter, allowing the outside front to actual work, increasing the front grip of the car. combine that with a wider front tire/wheel package and i'd bet the thing would feel pretty darn good.
what do you mean by "the rear swaybar won't do you a damn bit of good until you get that thing a little flatter"? So which is more important at this point: roll stiffness or balancing the the handling? I think the car would stay flat enough. Would some ES front sway bar bushings help?
The wheels and tires are more expensive, if you have the money for them get em. The extra grip of the 205/50/15 Azenis over the 195 is a greater gain than the sway bars will get you. If you can only get one sway bar get the rear. It will do more to help the car rotate. A front bar with a stock rear bar will push push push. Now with 205 on the front and 195 on the rear, then maybe a front sway might make sence. But I would go with 205 all around if you can afford it.
Get the tires then a rear sway, and you'll be set for all but the toughest national competition.
what do you mean by "the rear swaybar won't do you a damn bit of good until you get that thing a little flatter"? So which is more important at this point: roll stiffness or balancing the the handling? I think the car would stay flat enough. Would some ES front sway bar bushings help?
handling balance is altered by redistributing your weight transfer.
an airborne tire has no vertical load on it. it can't, it's airborne.
as soon as your inside rear tire starts to come off the ground your cg height starts to raise. the higher your cg, the more weight transfer occurs. the more weight transfer, the more roll. the more roll, the higher the cg. etc, etc.
mac strut cars have virtually no camber curve to speak of. especially once they are lowered. every degree of body roll moves the outside front the same amount in the positive direction. if you have -2* static camber on your front tires and the car rolls 4*, your outside front is now working at +2* of camber. this is bad for total grip and for front grip. ie, the car is going to be slow AND push.
until you get your outside front tire working optimally, you are wasting your time trying to get your inside front to work. therefore, the rear swaybar won't help you until you get the car flatter. so right now, roll stiffness is more important then "balance". (balance is such a crude term. a car that generates only .8 g's cornering force can be "balanced". doesn't mean it's fast though) i stand behind my first response. get the wider front wheels/tires and the big front bar. that will get you the biggest improvement for the car for what your budget currently allows.
the es swaybar bushings, at best, will only improve how quickly the bar responds. your terminal roll angle will remain unchanged.
art, from what i could see, all _your_ car did was push push push. at also had more body roll then this thread's original poster. what's up with that?
The stiffer springs preclude the necessity of stiffer roll bars. Get the bigger tires first. The sway bars just tune roll control as nate points out.
In addition, when you do get the bars, get a matched set. I am no fan of the stock front bar combined with ANY aftermarket bar for street use. This is a track set up. ST front/rear or ST front/Nu-Tech rear bar are decent. I have the adjustable Progress front/rear bars to install at some point on my race car.
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Bruce in Houston
1990 Acura Legend LS, stock (so far)
1994 Nissan Sentra SE-R (original owner) w/ $tuff, converting to ITA (even more $tuff)
1998 Suzuki Bandit1200S w/ $tuff, W.W.B.O.C. #101
2002 Dodge Dakota tow beast, stock! RIP swwwinger
art, from what i could see, all _your_ car did was push push push. at also had more body roll then this thread's original poster. what's up with that?
nate
The primary reason the car pushed so much was the tire pressures. Matt had us running 48lbs of pressure. Once I took them down to 36 the car responded much better.
so wider/stickier tires is the way to go to get rid of weight transfer and keep it flatter?
I didn't say that. I responded to Nates comment on my car pushing. I did say that he would get more gain in time going with wider tires than changing sway bars.
I was thinking that bigger/stickier tires would make body roll worse, especially if the car isn't lowered. So the car would push into a turn as the body roll resists turn in and puts a different load on the tires. Address this with stiffer springs & struts. Then the problem of natural understeer is addressed with a bigger rear sway bar. How off am I?
I was thinking that bigger/stickier tires would make body roll worse, especially if the car isn't lowered. So the car would push into a turn as the body roll resists turn in and puts a different load on the tires. Address this with stiffer springs & struts. Then the problem of natural understeer is addressed with a bigger rear sway bar. How off am I?
The sway bars will help with roll, but as Nate will attest there are some issues with the B13 SE-R. I have 380/400 springs with DA konis and I still get roll. I also have f&r adj. sway bars set at full stiff, still has body roll. When we drop our cars too low it inverts the control arms and makes the roll center farther away from the Center of Gravity, therefore increasing the tendency to roll. But when we raise the car to level out the control arms the cars CG is too high causing body roll. What to do? I am going to 600f/1200r on spring rate and slamming the car as low as possible. Hopefully this will help.
The sway bars will help with roll, but as Nate will attest there are some issues with the B13 SE-R. I have 380/400 springs with DA konis and I still get roll. I also have f&r adj. sway bars set at full stiff, still has body roll. When we drop our cars too low it inverts the control arms and makes the roll center farther away from the Center of Gravity, therefore increasing the tendency to roll. But when we raise the car to level out the control arms the cars CG is too high causing body roll. What to do? I am going to 600f/1200r on spring rate and slamming the car as low as possible. Hopefully this will help.
Art
art, you have to seperate body roll and weight transfer. the two are only mildly related and it's not typically a cause/effect type of relationship.
on your car, your front swaybar is _tiny_ compared to what matt was running on his old white car. the bar matt was using was 30mm, solid. i did some rough calcs. on it once to figure out about how stiff it was. i don't remember the number, but it was high. really high.
i really hope you're joking about those spring rates. you will not, even on your most inspired driving, be able to drive that thing. 1200lb springs are high for honda's, and they only see half the rate. not to mention that poor chassis is going to be doing a "herby goes to monte carlo" number on you.
i'd be nervous to go as high as a 600# spring on the drive wheels as well. topeka is bumpy.
stiff in roll, supple in ride. here's some reading for you. linky
art, you have to seperate body roll and weight transfer. the two are only mildly related and it's not typically a cause/effect type of relationship.
on your car, your front swaybar is _tiny_ compared to what matt was running on his old white car. the bar matt was using was 30mm, solid. i did some rough calcs. on it once to figure out about how stiff it was. i don't remember the number, but it was high. really high.
i really hope you're joking about those spring rates. you will not, even on your most inspired driving, be able to drive that thing. 1200lb springs are high for honda's, and they only see half the rate. not to mention that poor chassis is going to be doing a "herby goes to monte carlo" number on you.
i'd be nervous to go as high as a 600# spring on the drive wheels as well. topeka is bumpy.
stiff in roll, supple in ride. here's some reading for you. linky
