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I have a '92 Classic (Stock suspension with poly bushings on the swaybars and new KYB GR-2 all around; factory springs with 175K miles, tire pressure fine) with a bizarre suspension problem that has me, and apparently my mechanic, stumped. In long, 40mph+ turns to the right the back left wheel feels like it is ready to break away. It's hard to describe: the car enters the turn, starts to squat to the side and then suddenly dips further to the side. What it feels like is what I would imagine a very low tire would feel like when in a turn it flipped onto its sidewall.
My mechanic says, "it's the struts." I ask about springs. He insists struts. I get new KYBs. Doesn't fix the problem at all. He has a look at everything underneath and says one of the KYBs is bad. You know where this is going... I get a replacement and it's installed today and the problem is still there.
So, if it isn't the struts nor the tires...what is is?
It sounds like something is binding/unbinding in roll, possiblly within the swaybar endlinks or bushings. The stock spherical endlinks on the swaybars can wear out, and poly bushings left long unlubricated might not help, either.
The poly bushings are recently installed. I'm only guessing that my mech, an otherwise honest and perceptive guy, checked everything underneath. I've never had bad bushings on a car so I'm not sure what that might feel like.
Pretty sure it's not the wheel coming off the ground. Ha!
What does it feel like when springs go bad? My only experience was seeing my tires wear funny.
I never hear of springs on a car this recent going bad. I doubt that is the problem.
Alignment has the number one effect on tire wear, and a really off alignment will make the car handle strangely, too. The rear suspension on a B13 Sentra is toe-adjustable, and too much toe will chew up tires. A lot of toe-out on that corner could make it darty in right turns.
Knowledge about your alignment and any funny wear would tell us more about that.
On the extreme end, crash damage or a bent component (one of the parallel links or radius arm that makes up the rear suspension) will effect alignment and handling.
Really tried hard today to nail down the problems. Only wound up with more questions.
1 - had tires rotated. Tire shop guy told me that the rear lugs had been installed backwards (bevel out). Doesn't look good for my mech. They also showed me the front nut "guard" thing on the axel and, as it was loose, asked if perhaps missing a washer. I can't tell from the picture/instructions in Haynes. I drive the car after the rotation: no difference.
2 - Thinking it is the tire I take it to another tire shop that sells Bridgestone. They drive it, feel the problem too, and then take two hours to look it over. Their eval: it is from the front and it is a bent frame problem. They show me where the driver's tire sticks out further than the passenger. Only problem with their assessment is that the car was repaired for damage eight years ago and the handling issue has just showed up.
3 - I call the frame shop anyway. Guy is smart. Asks lots of questions and surmises what a few of you have said: loose bolt. He didn't think it sounded like a bent frame problem as there has been no noise.
So...is there supposed to be a washer behind the axel bolt "guard"?
hey man, I have the same feeling in my car, and I know for a fact that my rears are toed out alignment wise. I haven't fixed it yet because I still need to get a laser level to do it right, but I bet that's the problem. You should check the alignment - and do it yourself because the shops seem like the monkey exhibit at the zoo.
__________________
Derrick
"It's better to go into a corner slow and come out fast, than to go into a corner fast and come out dead" - Stirling Moss
I never hear of springs on a car this recent going bad. I doubt that is the problem.
Alignment has the number one effect on tire wear, and a really off alignment will make the car handle strangely, too. The rear suspension on a B13 Sentra is toe-adjustable, and too much toe will chew up tires. A lot of toe-out on that corner could make it darty in right turns.
Knowledge about your alignment and any funny wear would tell us more about that.
On the extreme end, crash damage or a bent component (one of the parallel links or radius arm that makes up the rear suspension) will effect alignment and handling.
correct, if you have screwy toe out on the rear it could cause this. what can happen is this: sence the front of the rear outside tire is pointing to the out side of the turn it will pull in that direction.......this causes alittle more tail happiness. once you hit a certain speed (and if you have sloppy bushings/binding sus parts it will make it that much worse) your inside tire looses a bit of grip.......making any issues with the outside tires (compressed side) that much more noticable.
im not saying this is whats wrong.....nor have i ever seen anything like this happen. but in therey its possible
Quote:
Originally Posted by rodo
Really tried hard today to nail down the problems. Only wound up with more questions.
1 - had tires rotated. Tire shop guy told me that the rear lugs had been installed backwards (bevel out). Doesn't look good for my mech. They also showed me the front nut "guard" thing on the axel and, as it was loose, asked if perhaps missing a washer. I can't tell from the picture/instructions in Haynes. I drive the car after the rotation: no difference.
2 - Thinking it is the tire I take it to another tire shop that sells Bridgestone. They drive it, feel the problem too, and then take two hours to look it over. Their eval: it is from the front and it is a bent frame problem. They show me where the driver's tire sticks out further than the passenger. Only problem with their assessment is that the car was repaired for damage eight years ago and the handling issue has just showed up.
3 - I call the frame shop anyway. Guy is smart. Asks lots of questions and surmises what a few of you have said: loose bolt. He didn't think it sounded like a bent frame problem as there has been no noise.
So...is there supposed to be a washer behind the axel bolt "guard"?
ok WOOOOOOOW. im sorry but i highly suggest you find a new mechanic quickly. installing the lug nuts in the wrong direction is most likely the dumbest thing i have EVER HEARD OF IN MY ENTIRE LIFE. mind you if you are a first timer on cars and do this ON YOUR OWN i would completely understand.......your not being payed to fix peoples cars nor are you claiming to be able to fix cars, but this was done buy a "paid proffesional"
your axl nut should have a cheezy metal cap that goes over top of the nut itself.....looks alot like the top of a castel tower. then there should lso be a pin that goes threw the axel shaft.
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Last edited by classicaddict : 08-09-2007 at 11:15 PM.
Today had it to the alignment shop. It was out of alignment. However, that isn't the whole story. Shop guy said that even with the corrected alignment it was twitchy and, he thought, it pulled. He suggested I swap the (directional) front tires. That didn't quite fix it either. His evaluation: the tires are crap.
I think he may be right. They are Bridgestone Potenza RE960A Pole Position. I bought them when they were a brand new model from Tirerack. (ie: no feedback on them.) I checked the feedback today, particularly the lowest ratings, and sure enough there were several folks who described the same kind of wandering, twitchy, scary handling that my Classic exhibits.
The shop guy also said this: "never buy directional tires." Seemed odd advice to me. Any thoughts?
Have had RE950's on mine (NOT the same tire, obviously) for more than 10k, but they are directional, as are many 'performance' tires today. Putting directional tires on BACKWARDS might be a problem, but installed correctly should not. SOMETHING is loose. The cars may not be CSRs, but they don't do the beetle wobble either when they're tied down correctly. How many miles on this thing?
It DOES sound to me that you're having trouble finding a good wrench and a good tire shop.
__________________
'93 B13, etc.
If you don't have the patience
to do it right the first time,
how is it you have the time to
do it over and over again?
All but the worst, most mismatched Chinese retread tires should keep a car relatively stable, provided they are in good condition with usable tread. If you had a flawed Bridgestone, rotating it off that corner would have fixed (or at least changed) the problem.
The overwhelming majority of performance tires are directional. Most waffle-pattern unidirectional tires are long-life all-seasons meant for grandma cars. Sure, you get idiot-proof rotation and mounting (easy for the tire man), but that is no logic against a sportier tire.
It's time to check for loose bolts, worn components (bushings, tie-rod ends, ball-joints, etc.), and collision damage.
My Classic has 175K miles. I've replaced front and rear struts with GR-2s and all the sway bar bushings with poly. I've owned the car since 1999; prior to that it was owned by my neighbor's wife who drove it gently. The body is clean and straight and there does not appear to be any issues with rusty strut towers/mounting points
My local wrench is a good guy and typically thorough. (It was one of his minions who put the lugs on backwards. When I told him he was furious.) He, and two different tire shops, looked, poked, prodded, shook, twisted, and checked all the mechanicals underneath and none of them found anything loose.
Now that it's aligned, it sure seems to me to be not a bad tire, as in defective, but bad tires, as in terrible design. And there were several folks at tirerack who described exactly the same feel: "felt like it slide an inch to the side in a turn." But if I assume that it isn't a tire, what the heck in the suspension could be so hidden that three different shops could not find it?
I'd be surprised a name brand tire could be so crummy, but a soft sidewall and tread squirm can certainly make a car feel wallowy.
If you have any cause to be up towards NW Arkansas and need parts cheap, I have a parts car and an old set of 15x6.5's with worn-out 195/50-15 Yoko ES100's on them.
Jim, good job on the very methodical approach to the issue at hand! I'm sure you will have it solved soon.
The problem sounds quite a lot like the issue I was having with my '91 NX; I'd get into a right hand turn, and start to load up the suspension, then there would be sudden change in the suspension that would make for an exciting moment as I reset my line.
In attempting to diagose a bad wheel bearing, I checked both sides of the front with the "wheel push" method (hands at 12 and 6 o'clock on the wheel, and give 'er a wiggle to see if there is slop in the bearing). No joy there, but out of curiosity, I also tried it at 9 and 3 o'clock positions and found considerable movement. Well, that just didn't make any sense for a bearing issue. Upon closer observation, I noticed the lower control arm was moving in an unintended direction at the rear bushing position, so the right wheel was bumping in and out of position (in relation to the centerline of the car) and causing all sorts of geometry havoc! The wheel was actually oscillating between the intended direction (parallel to the left wheel) and severe toe-in (pigeon toed toward centerline axis).
Solution? Energy Suspension urethane bushing kit to bring it back to good.
Sorry for the long-winded description, but if it fits, maybe it could help you out!
Darrin
__________________
Sad little 91 NX... recovering nicely!
Last edited by SkyShepherd : 08-12-2007 at 11:57 AM.
Reason: correction
My Classic has 175K miles. I've replaced front and rear struts with GR-2s and all the sway bar bushings with poly. I've owned the car since 1999; prior to that it was owned by my neighbor's wife who drove it gently. The body is clean and straight and there does not appear to be any issues with rusty strut towers/mounting points
My local wrench is a good guy and typically thorough. (It was one of his minions who put the lugs on backwards. When I told him he was furious.) He, and two different tire shops, looked, poked, prodded, shook, twisted, and checked all the mechanicals underneath and none of them found anything loose.
Now that it's aligned, it sure seems to me to be not a bad tire, as in defective, but bad tires, as in terrible design. And there were several folks at tirerack who described exactly the same feel: "felt like it slide an inch to the side in a turn." But if I assume that it isn't a tire, what the heck in the suspension could be so hidden that three different shops could not find it?
