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In order to open the SE-R Cup series up to more competitors, all SR20
powered B13 and B14-chassis vehicles currently racing under SCCA's ITS
classification are considered eligable for the SE-R Cup in SR class.
Participants wishing to use this allowance in SE-R Cup rules must 1)
Possess
a current and valid SCCA log book for the vehicle, and 2) Verify in
writing
that the vehicle complies with *ALL* SCCA ITS rules (except for
signage).
No cross-pollination of ITS and SR rules will be allowed. All vehicles
racing in the series must either comply fully with SCCA ITS rules, or
fully
with NASA SR/SRX rules. Vehicle wishing to participate must still
obtain a
NASA logbook and undergo a NASA annual tech. Four NASA stickers must
be
placed on the vehicle in compliance with the NASA CCR. All SCCA decals
must
be covered or removed.
As always, the Series Director and all NASA officials retain the right
to
exclude any vehicle deemed unsafe from competition.
This posting serves as written notice to all competitors. This change
to
the SE-R Cup rules will become effective June 12th, 2004 (30 days from
the
date of this posting), in accordance with section 8.7 of the SE-R Cup
Rules
and Classifications, rev 3.00.
Re: Rules change, IT cars legal in SE-R Cup SR class!
Quote:
Originally Posted by choaderboy2
Rules addendum:
In order to open the SE-R Cup series up to more competitors, all SR20
powered B13 and B14-chassis vehicles currently racing under SCCA's ITS
classification are considered eligable for the SE-R Cup in SR class.
Personally, I don't know how good of a rule this is. How can you have cars under one series racing with different rules?
Re: Rules change, IT cars legal in SE-R Cup SR class!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scarpa
Aren't IT cars heavier and lower power than SR Cup cars? Plus they can't run upgraded brakes. (Not an issue for NXes I know )
True Cup cars can run 11 inch brakes, but people run both 11s and NX brakes and we've determined it isn't really a performance advantage.
ITS NX minimum weight I think is 2490 with driver, which is about 190 lbs more than Cup weight. At that weight, Cup cars can make about 144 whp. An IT prepared SR20 can probably make 10 hp more than that, so the power to weight ratio is very similar.
But the IT cars get more tire and better suspensions modifications.
But that isn't really the point I was trying to make, which is: IT and Cup rules are two totally different veins of modification- it is tough to make them equal.
Re: Rules change, IT cars legal in SE-R Cup SR class!
Quote:
Originally Posted by DriveNASA
True Cup cars can run 11 inch brakes, but people run both 11s and NX brakes and we've determined it isn't really a performance advantage.
ITS NX minimum weight I think is 2490 with driver, which is about 190 lbs more than Cup weight. At that weight, Cup cars can make about 144 whp. An IT prepared SR20 can probably make 10 hp more than that, so the power to weight ratio is very similar.
But the IT cars get more tire and better suspensions modifications.
But that isn't really the point I was trying to make, which is: IT and Cup rules are two totally different veins of modification- it is tough to make them equal.
IT prepped car will not have more power, it will weigh more and have smaller brakes. I am not afraid of them. It will help the east coast guys get kicked off and I am pretty sure we will be allowed 225's next year in SR. Naji and I's testing has shown that 225's are not much of a speed advantage.
Anyway SE-R guys are cheapasses, no one is going to get triple adjustable shocks, heim joints, etc. People who can afford this stuff don't race SE-R's. These sorts of shocks cost $5000.
Re: Rules change, IT cars legal in SE-R Cup SR class!
I'm with Mike on this one.
No offense to anyone else out there, but I think we have the best-prepared ITS B13. I can say, with confidence, that we would not be competitive against a full-out SR car.
First, our minimum weight is 2490 pounds with driver; next year it's 2515 in ITA (maybe.) Checkbox to the SR Cup.
Second, we are not allowed camshafts or any porting, which are a big key to making power. The only engine mods allowed are headers, JWT intake, 1/2 point compression, 1mm overbore, balancing and blueprinting. My basically-stock engine puts out 135whp on a DynaPack, giving me - at best - 18.4 #/hp. If I build a good engine to the limits, I'll be tickled pink (and surprised) with 150whp and 16.6 #/hp. Checkbox to the SR Cup.
Third, as to suspension, no one makes spherical bearings or Heim joints for the suspension on this car, and I personally have no plans or desires to do so myself, because I don't believe they make a significant enough difference, certainly not enough to justify the the expense. I'd rather spend the money on some more track time. Further, we're only allowed 2-way adjustable dampers and we cannot run remote reservoirs, just like SR Cup. Sounds like a wash to me.
Brakes? Stock only, with SS-braided lines and the pads of choice. Checkbox to the SR Cup.
Then we come to wheels and tires. IT rules require 14" wheels, 7" maximum, but we can run any tire that fits inside the fender wells. I run 14x7 Borbet Type Ts with 225 Hoosiers; most other racers are running 205s and Kumhos. In fact, I've tried 225s for only two events, and we're giving serious thought to going back to 205s. Further, 14x7 wheels are a pain to find; my Hoosiers on Borbets weigh a *ton* compared to my buddy's 205/50-15 Toyos on Team Dynamics wheels that he runs on his Spec Miata. I'd guess my wheels/tires weigh at least 10 pounds more each (I know; I keep having the schlep them in and out of the truck). OK, so I can run Hoosiers, and I can run 225s, but I gotta run 14" wheels and they're heavy (unless I score a set of Panasports), but I'll give the checkbox to the IT car.
In summary, the IT cars are heavier, have less horsepower, but can run Hoosier tires. Honestly, if I were serious about running more than one or two SE-R Cup events I would not build my car to IT specs just to be able to run 225 Hoosiers...the bottom line is that the level of prep for an IT car is less than that allowed for SE-R Cup. I think it's a smart move.
Just wait 'til you guys are running Watkins Glen, Pocono, New Hampshire, and Lime Rock, and I build a *real* SE-R Cup car...<grin>
Re: Rules change, IT cars legal in SE-R Cup SR class!
Greg pretty much hit the nail on the head. I really don't think a true ITS car will be faster than an SE-R Cup car. When I was considering running SE-R Cup a few months ago, I was looking at all the stuff I could further do to my car -- c/f hood, bigger brakes (IT SE-R's will still have to run the stock brakes and can't even go to ADV22F calipers), cold-air intake, cams, etc.
How much do the SR cars weigh compared to 2450/2490 with driver (and more next year??) for the ITS cars?
The Hoosiers are faster than anything offered by Kumho now , but they aren't that great of an advantage over a lighter, more powerful car.
Re: Rules change, IT cars legal in SE-R Cup SR class!
Quote:
Originally Posted by slowSER
Greg pretty much hit the nail on the head....
Right, but like I said my point is that basically we are creating a series with two sets of rules, which seems kind of silly to me.
I mean, I am all for gentlemen's agreements before an event that would allow an IT spec car to run with no penalties, but writing it into the rules just makes things more complicated.
But if it brings more people in, then I'm all for it.
Re: Rules change, IT cars legal in SE-R Cup SR class!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Grega
No offense to anyone else out there, but I think we have the best-prepared ITS B13. I can say, with confidence, that we would not be competitive against a full-out SR car.
Well, the main difference being that there are not any full-out SR cars out there and that has been good for the series. No one has built a 140 whp motor with 150 lb-ft and no one has stripped the car down to the minimum weight and then ballasted back up.
Ok, you guys are right. I agree a full-out SR car would be faster, but I think your IT NX (Eggs rule!) would be quite competitive with the fast cars we have here on the west coast.
I really think that the SE-R Cup needs a $1000 claimer rule to prevent motor building. Like for $1000 (or $1500 or whatever) you can claim any competitors long block or their ECU/engine management. Either or, but not both.
Right now we have a happy medium with all us running cheap, stock except cams motors. It would be a bummer for a high-dollar motor to come in and ruin our cheap fun.
Re: Rules change, IT cars legal in SE-R Cup SR class!
Quote:
Originally Posted by DriveNASA
Well, the main difference being that there are not any full-out SR cars out there and that has been good for the series. No one has built a 140 whp motor with 150 lb-ft and no one has stripped the car down to the minimum weight and then ballasted back up.
Ok, you guys are right. I agree a full-out SR car would be faster, but I think your IT NX (Eggs rule!) would be quite competitive with the fast cars we have here on the west coast.
I really think that the SE-R Cup needs a $1000 claimer rule to prevent motor building. Like for $1000 (or $1500 or whatever) you can claim any competitors long block or their ECU/engine management. Either or, but not both.
Right now we have a happy medium with all us running cheap, stock except cams motors. It would be a bummer for a high-dollar motor to come in and ruin our cheap fun.
Tony Guardado's car is built right to the limit of the rules. I don't underbuild a club racer, I strip it out and add structure to let the car be more ridged and more robust to being hit. I get rid of uneeded weight and overbuild the cage, leave in bumpers, etc.
His car is lightning fast. I put his car on the pole at Thunderhill last year stepping into it never having driven it before on a strange track and taking it easy due to not wanting to hurt his car. I am not the fastest cup driver either, I am probably the slowest of the fast guys. After getting hit and punted to the back of the pack, I came back into second to be punted to the back of the pack again and again charging into second.
Put Sheening or Tom into that car and it would dominate so badly everyone would complain, especialy now that the aero package is getting finished. You don't need a high dollar motor, just a lot of dyno time and playing with electrons. 150 ft/lbs doesnt mean much either, its about crossover point and area under the curve. When Tony gets better we will focus more on the cars development and less on driver development.
Tony has the money to do anything he wants, right now I am working with him on becoming a better driver and when he is ready look out.
Re: Rules change, IT cars legal in SE-R Cup SR class!
Quote:
Originally Posted by choaderboy2
150 ft/lbs doesnt mean much either, its about crossover point and area under the curve.
I think if someone spent the time and money to build a motor for the series it would kill anything else out there. You can engineer a big wide torque band and dial the whp level right in where you want it.
Re: Rules change, IT cars legal in SE-R Cup SR class!
Well, guys, I still gotta thank you for the consideration, and this will cement my desire to race the SE-R Cup in July. I *really* appreciated Jim's offer to let me drive with my Hoosiers, but I was feeling a bit "out of place" doing so. With this rule change I feel a lot better about it.
It looks like we'll skip the Pro Spec Miata race Memorial Day weekend, plus I'll miss our local mid-June Regional due to my wife and I going to the Indy F1 race (Schuey asked us to dinner - NOT!!). I've heard nothing from this group on the BeaveRun sprints in June, so my next opportunity to race is the NASA SE-R Cup at Summit mid-July. I'm now in "concerted effort" mode to get there.
I'll be reviewing the NASA web site ot find out how to get a membership and license approved; any tips are appreciated.
)
, but they aren't that great of an advantage over a lighter, more powerful car.