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Yesterday at Buttonwillow, John Lindsey's #46 SE-R cup car was destroyed in a very violent end over end crash. Fortunatly the stout cage allowed by SE-R cup rules, a good seat, harness and Hans device allowed John to walk away from the accident with only minor bruses and soreness.
What was scarey was what happend to the battery. The battery was a lightweight Hawker dry cell. The battery was trunck mounted in a Summet Racing battery box bolted to the floor of the car and held down with a typical metal braket inside the box. This mounting conformed in its holdown to every sanctioning body set of rules I have ever seen and was sanitary with large washers, etc backing up the bolts. The battery box was also retained by a sturdy nylon strap, it all looked safe and sano
The accident was violent with the car flipping up to 20 feet in the air and tumbling end over end 4 times. The car's safety equipent performed flawlessly, the cage was not even bent although the car was crushed around it. However, the battery mounts tabs pulled through the hold down bracket, the battery came loose, the battery box shattered into many small pieces and the battery was flinging around in the car attached to the cables!
The ground cable eventualy tore off and the only thing that prevented the battery from becoming a 15 lb projectile with the lone remaining postive calbe which fortunatly held. Emagine what would happen if this was a conventional 30 lb lead acid battery full of sulfuric acid! The battery was probably the most hazardous thing in the accident!
I think we really need to look at the mounts for trunk mounted batteries, first off, I think never run a stock lead acid battery. Run a lightweight gell cell battery, the lighter the better, like a hawker or baker racing battery. A lighter battery has less potential energy to bust out of its moorings and the gell electrolite is less caustic. The battery should be held down by a wrap around large bracket of at least 10 gauge held down by 4 grade 5 bolts or better, backed up by really big washers. The box should not have any sort of retention fucntion.
Remember in a crash, the battery can generate spike forces of over 100 lbs and hit you at speeds of 50 mph. It could crack your head open helmet or not. Also look at your fire bottle mounts. This accident was terrible and it makes me sick to my stomach to look at John's car but there are important lessons to be learned here that might save some of us later.
Lastly, I think a neck restraint might be critical. John was wearing a Hans device which probably spared him a bit of injury. The Hans device did give him a pretty good bruse on his back, an indication of how much force it prevent his neck from absorbing.
Lastly don't skimp on your cage, seat harnesses, window nets, drivers suits, helmits, fire systems etc. Buy the best made, not nessesarly the best you can afford.
This accident was one of the most violent I have seen in club racing, because of good car prep and good safety equipment, the driver was able to walk away. John is an excellent, fast and expericanced veteren driver that had a bit of bad luck. We all need to learn from this. My car is going to have many changes to its safety systems in the off season because of what I learned.
Thanks for that. I need to look at my own retention mechanism for the battery, it's inside on the passenger side floor pan with the normal hold downs.
Are all Hans devices made to fit the individual, I'd like to get one, where would you suggest?
Glad to hear John is OK Mike! That sounds like it would have easily been a fatal crash had it not been for the Se-R cup regulations.
Does anyone here know where John had his cage constructed? I'd like to contact THAT company when I'm ready to build my cup car.
BTW, did this happen at the same turn where that couple in the roadster died last month?
It was built by Sevens only at Buttonwillow. It is a very stout cage. It happened at magic mountain, a tricky turn where the couple died and where I got up on two wheels just a few weeks ago. Mud makes cars stick and more likely to flip and it was very muddy in the run off zone.
Thanks for that. I need to look at my own retention mechanism for the battery, it's inside on the passenger side floor pan with the normal hold downs.
Are all Hans devices made to fit the individual, I'd like to get one, where would you suggest?
I think they are custom made to the driver. I think they are only sold by the manufacture. One of the things I dislike about the Hans device is that your head movment is limited, bascialy you can only turn your head enough to see your mirrors. One world challange driver got into an accident because he went off and was waved onto the track by a corner worker into oncoming traffic. He could not turn his head to see the cars coming and trusted the corner worker to guide him safely.
However some of the other neck restraints that allow more movement only seem to protect in a head on crash. I am not sure what I am going to do myself. I am going to get a seat with head restaints and will at least continue to wear a horse coller. Actualy I don't even like wearing that because I feel like it limits my abilty to see.
Any other racers have ideas? Anyone have opinions on the Hans device?
This is one thing my father has always said to me since he has been racing; "You can not put a price on safety." He said you can skimp on everything else if you choose, but never on safety equipment. PERIOD!
Mike, I would like to know what recommendations that you have for a car that does HPDE's and the such. The reason I ask is because of this very reason, SAFETY! I know what the difference is in not needing it and not ever needing it. My phylosophy is you never miss it until you don't have it. I am very glad to hear that John is in good condition. Thanks.
__________________
'92 Super Black Se-r w/ just mods - SOLD
'91 Super Black Se-r stock (for now )
"I'm more afraid of being nothing then I am of being hurt."
I was right on John's bumper when it happened and saw him flipping in my rear view mirrow , I'll post what I saw later. I'm happy John is okay, I just got off the phone with him, he's not even sore today
Cage was made by Pablo, not by 7's only. Although Tom from 7s Only makes great cages too IMO.
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Tom Paule
#57 H4
Still own a P10
This is one thing my father has always said to me since he has been racing; "You can not put a price on safety." He said you can skimp on everything else if you choose, but never on safety equipment. PERIOD!
Mike, I would like to know what recommendations that you have for a car that does HPDE's and the such. The reason I ask is because of this very reason, SAFETY! I know what the difference is in not needing it and not ever needing it. My phylosophy is you never miss it until you don't have it. I am very glad to hear that John is in good condition. Thanks.
A lot of how much equipement you need for HDPE, I think depends on your temperment and how you drive. If you get the red mist and find yourself driving 10/10's in HDPE 4 where they allow open passing, I would think that you would want a sturdy roll bar and a 5-6 point harness properly anchored to it.
If you are driving a street car in the lower HDPE levels, and can dislplen yourself to drive within your limits and the cars limits and to space yourself out and recognise lame drivers and distance yourself from them, you are proably fine with the stock safety equipment and a good helmet. HDPE's are good safe track time and I have never seen anyone get seriously hurt. Accidents are rare in our region.
Simpson and G-Force also make a head/shoulder restraint system that appears to be a cheap version of the Hans, but I've never actually seen one except for in Jegs' and Summit's catalog. I agree about being possibly dangerous due to limmited head turning.
A lot of how much equipement you need for HDPE, I think depends on your temperment and how you drive. If you get the red mist and find yourself driving 10/10's in HDPE 4 where they allow open passing, I would think that you would want a sturdy roll bar and a 5-6 point harness properly anchored to it.
If you are driving a street car in the lower HDPE levels, and can dislplen yourself to drive within your limits and the cars limits and to space yourself out and recognise lame drivers and distance yourself from them, you are proably fine with the stock safety equipment and a good helmet. HDPE's are good safe track time and I have never seen anyone get seriously hurt. Accidents are rare in our region.
My car will have a 4 pt. rollbar (anchored behind each seat and then two more on the rear strut tower area, along with a cross bar for the harnesses). The setup will also have a 5 pt. harness for the driver and passenger. The cage will be built by the owner of Competition cages. I also race with a Simpson helmet. I think (just guessing) I am okay on the safety side of things. Thanks for the input Mike.
I think the best thing to do is weld in a snug-fit steel box sunk into the trunk floor to hold the battery with a strong lid. I think part of the reason it might have come loose is the leverage the mass has when it is sitting on top of the floorpan.
Re: head restraints. HANS all the way. I have seen comparisons of how they all work and the HANS is one of the only ones that works in non-head-on impacts. Most of the competitors don't do a lot of good in offset impacts IIRC. Also, I think the fact that is goes with you is important. Some of those others attach to the car or harness and require you to do an extra step to free yourself from the car. The most scary one that comes to mind requires you to pull two pins on either side of your head to get out of a burning car. With the HANS, you just do the harness and go. I don't remember numbers, but I recall the HANS being the most thoroughly tested and effective. It is mandated by name in many series and the HANS is the device of choice by about 95% in my own pro paddock observations. Also, I STRONGLY recommend those who are building new cars to pony up for a seat with side head restraints. Sparco or Recaro or Racetech. I have seen test dummy videos that make my stomach turn comparing seats with and without side headrests. They keep your head within the working range of the harnesses and HANS device. Next season in world challenge they are also mandating the right-side head retention nets stretched from seat to dash to prevent your head from flailing around the cabin.
Not to be morbid or something, but does anyone have pics of the car? I'd like to see how it crunched. IIRC Pablo in Palmdale built John's cage. I'm really glad he's ok
I am indeed happy and healthy after what was a pretty awful wreck. I took a muscle relaxant last night and some Advil this a.m., but I can't even tell that I took a big ride yesterday. All of the bruises are gone and aside from being a little tired, I feel pretty good. Observers said the car flipped four times and was 15 feet in the air at one point, so this was about as bad as a roll can get without hitting a solid object.
So, why am I OK? Well, aside from divine intervention, the answer is that I spent some bucks on safety stuff. I have been running a HANS for nearly three years and never had a chance to test it. I also spent some long green on a carbon-kevlar Cobra seat, nice Schroth FIA belts, and a lightweight Bell helmet. I sacrificed some weight in the car by having Pablo Mobius (661-274-2088) put in a ton of gussets, reinforcement bars and .120-inch tubing, but it looks like it paid off big time. Most of the safety gear is now trashed, but it did its job well and I am happy to be able to replace all of it. The battery holddown was a scary deal, but seeing as how that was the only real failure on the car, I got very lucky.
To end, I would like to thank all the Cup racers and fans along with my other racing buddies who had my car and trailer loaded up by the time I got back from changing back into my street clothes. I would also thank all of those who have called to check up on me today. The NASA community is an amazing bunch of people and the Cup crowd really is a big family. Learn from my lesson here and go for the best in whatever safety gear you can lay your hands on. Hopefully you never have to test any of it, but you'll be a really happy camper if you do.
Sorry to hear of John's misfortune but damned glad he came out practically unscathed.
A fitting testimonial to safety. My employer (a chemical company now part of Shell) insists upon safe practices and it's funny to make mention to people in the most casual of circumstances how they could do something more safely. Yet, after reading this thread, I realize my plans for my IT car have been rather inadequate regarding safety. Thank you, Mike, for posting the thread and providing some analysis.
Race safe, y'all.
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Bruce in Houston
1994 Nissan Sentra SE-R (original owner) w/ $tuff, converting to ITA (even more $tuff)
1996 Dodge Viper RT/10 (RIP, Dad)
1998 Suzuki Bandit 1200S w/ $tuff, W.W.B.O.C. #101 (wanna buy?)
2002 Dodge Dakota tow beast, stock!
2007 Mazda MX-5 Touring w/ $tuff
2011 Infiniti G37S RIP swwwinger
Are all Hans devices made to fit the individual, I'd like to get one, where would you suggest?
Having just recently been to Hubbard-Downing to buy my own HANS Device, I feel especially able to comment. I had been planning for some time to actually to to Atlanta to try them on. I wanted to be sure of a good fit and thanks to my attendance of the SCCA ARRC race at Road Atlanta, the opportunity presented itself quite nicely.
To answer your question, the devices are not custom made to the individual typically (I'm sure for an order of magnitude more money it can be). However, they are made for varying degrees of seatback rake and various neck sizes.
Most tin tops require the 20 degree version. I have an approximately 17" neck and fell between the regular size and large size device per their web site. I would say fitting a regular to someone with a neck size of 17" would be problematic at best. I'm so glad I went there. The regular was tight around my neck even without my suit on (and the thick collar it has). They were temporarily out of stock of the 20L, but I tried on a large in another angle size and it was much more comfortable. If you are a "tweener" on size like me, you may have to try one and send it back to try the other size.
I consider my HANS the best investment I've ever made in racing. I bought it not for me, but for my wife. I'm prepared to meet my maker, but I'm not prepared to make my wife a widow, at least not needlessly.
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George Roffe
91 SE-R (well modded)
84 944 SCCA ITS race car under construction
http://www.nissport.com
I think they are custom made to the driver. I think they are only sold by the manufacture. One of the things I dislike about the Hans device is that your head movment is limited, bascialy you can only turn your head enough to see your mirrors. One world challange driver got into an accident because he went off and was waved onto the track by a corner worker into oncoming traffic. He could not turn his head to see the cars coming and trusted the corner worker to guide him safely.
However some of the other neck restraints that allow more movement only seem to protect in a head on crash. I am not sure what I am going to do myself. I am going to get a seat with head restaints and will at least continue to wear a horse coller. Actualy I don't even like wearing that because I feel like it limits my abilty to see.
Any other racers have ideas? Anyone have opinions on the Hans device?
OK, first.... As I just posted the HANS is not made to order. There are also resellers for the device now, but unless you're buying a helmet from a reseller at the same time, why screw around. Go to the source. Oh, and the large comes with ridges to help hold the belts over the device. The economy model (mostly CF with some fiberglass) is now $865. Cheap where your life is concerned.
Second... Do what you like, but the only over H&N restraint I'd consider is the Isaac. I met Gregg Baker (of Isaac) at the ARRC and can tell you straight away he's a great guy who takes great care of his drivers. He even showed up at ARRC with the latest model that he swapped out for his drivers' old models (so he could test the old one after they have seen some use). The rest of the H&N restraints are pure crap IMHO. I even have a G-Force helmet that is set up to use their H&N device. I considered it as well, but I wouldn't trust it like a HANS or Isaac.
Third... The horse collar won't do squat unless you have a compression of the neck.
Fourth... I tried a full containment seat while at Hubbard-Downing. They are not without issue. They would be wonderful for driving because you certainly become one with the car, but I had a hell of a time getting in and out of a seat that fit me perfectly. I'm sure if I were on fire I'd be more motivated to get out, but it scares me. I highly suggest trying them out before investing some serious money in one.
Fifth... More important than a full containment seat would be a head net on the passenger side of the seat. Latest safety testing has shown this net to be an excellent safety device and it's cheap to boot.
This is one thing my father has always said to me since he has been racing; "You can not put a price on safety." He said you can skimp on everything else if you choose, but never on safety equipment. PERIOD!
I'll go one better. Long before I started to race I held to the following: If you cannot afford safety, you cannot afford to race. Period.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Peanuthead
Mike, I would like to know what recommendations that you have for a car that does HPDE's and the such.
Had the same discussion with Gregg Baker. He gets asked this a lot. In the discussion came the fact that accidents that are equally as serious and potentially life threatening occur in DEs as well.
My recommendation is continue to upgrade safety before performance and do it appropriately. Once you have a cage, a H&N restraint should be on your list of safety upgrades for the near future.
Like Andris, I too would like to see photos. It's not morbid curiosity however. There are things to be learned from this and things to be studied. My cage is finished, but I will be building Bruce's cage before long. I have an idea of how I want to build it, but studying your post crash car will be valuable to me and should be to others building cars/cages.
OK, first.... As I just posted the HANS is not made to order. There are also resellers for the device now, but unless you're buying a helmet from a reseller at the same time, why screw around. Go to the source.
HANS sells Simpson and Bell helmets from their website, too. 10% off a helmet when you order a device and of course they'll install everything, too. http://hansdevice.com/
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, I'll post what I saw later. I'm happy John is okay, I just got off the phone with him, he's not even sore today 
