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Go Back   SR20 Forum > Vendor Customer Support > CalumSult > ROM & ECU tuning file exchange



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Old 04-05-2005, 12:00 AM   #1 (permalink)
Crim
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Changing ecu to 4bar setup...Is this right?

Looking for some information on setting up this U12 SR20DET ecu for 370cc's @ 4bar pressure.

Heres how I calculated it, *** I could be 100% wrong in how I found this.

Stock Injectors on this ecu are 370cc. From what I could find out 370cc's @ 4 bar are equivalent to 420cc injectors (correct me if I'm wrong)

370/420 = .88

The stock K value was 53E3(hex) or 21475(dec)

so 21475 * .88 = 18918 or 49E6(hex). Does this look right for the K value?

Then I took the TP Scales for hi octane fuel and ignition timing and multiplied each by .88 as well.

Then the stock "void blast off" or injector latency value was 3A(hex) or 58(dec)

So using this formula:

58/370 = x/420 or x = (58*370)/420

My value for X came out to be 65.8 and then did this:

[(65.8-58)/2] + 58 = 62 or 3E(hex) and used this value.

Then I calculated my new TTP Min values by multiplying each by .88.

To calculate the new TTP Max values, I multiplied the first two values by .88, the next two values by .95, and left the rest as is.

This information I got from Devins tutorial over on ztechz.net.

Can anyone chime in and let me know if this is complete garbage? Or does this look about the right way to do this?

Thanks!
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Old 04-05-2005, 12:05 AM   #2 (permalink)
Crim
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Here is a copy of my bin file. I took calum's base u12 SR20DET bin (since I run the U12 ecu in my own car currently)

I deleted the knock maps in the fuel/ignition timing. I set both the fuel and timing maps slightly more aggressive. Imported the VQ maps for the Z32 maf and as shown above attempted to convert to 4bar (420cc injectors).

Let me know if this is complete crap.
Attached Files
File Type: bin u12sr20det 4bar.bin (32.0 KB, 14 views)
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Old 04-05-2005, 12:41 PM   #3 (permalink)
JayLew
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I kind of cheated, but, LiveEdit came up with 4BE6 for your new K constant. And recomends a NULL value of 3D.

Live Edit uses stock injector size of 380cc's. This was without using a Z32 MAF.
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Old 04-05-2005, 01:05 PM   #4 (permalink)
Crim
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Hrm so it looks like I'm fairly on target then. Does live edit automaticly adjust your maps for a particular injector size? I havn't played with it yet.
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Old 04-05-2005, 04:06 PM   #5 (permalink)
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You're close.

You've got two things you need to compensate for, both the injectors and the maf. Whenever you change either one you need to change the k-value. Changing the injector size also means you need to change the TP axis. Since your not physically changing the injector, don't change the latency. Also the process on ztechz is wrong for this. Obviously changing the maf means you must change the VQ map.

Lets start with the maf, since it just means adjusting the k-value. Scaling for maf changes is pretty straightforward, you just multiply the k-value by the ratio of the two maf sizes (where I'm defining the maf "size" as the largest mass air flow it can measure in kg/cc). The trick is knowing what the maf sizes are. The Z32 maf is about 2.2 times the size of the U12/B13 maf. How do I know that? Well, thats a story for another post. Anywho, take the stock number and multiply it by 2.2, giving you hB88D. Change your VQ map and your good to go there. You can actually do a quick check at this point as to how close your k-value really is. Burn the rom you've got at this point (Z32 VQ map, compensated k-value, U12 bin) and stick it in the car with the fuel pressure at 3-bar and the Z32 maf. Drive the car in closed loop (just drive a constant speed, when the ecu is in closed loop the o2 will flip back and forth) and watch how far the ecu adjusts the alpha feedback. Obviously you need a consult box and software for this. If its moving it more than 10% your too far off, less than that is fine. Adjust your k-value to suit.

Ok, on to injector changes. First calculate the size of the injector for 4-bar. Multiply the current size by 1.15 to give you approximatley the size at 4-bar. When I had my 370s cleaned and flow'd by RC they ended up measuring 405 after cleaning and between 370 and 405 before. 380 is probably close enough, remember the ecu will compensate for the injectors being off (but it doesn't do it on a per cylinder basis, its the average injector size) and you can adjust the fuel pressure to match as well (repeat the alpha tuning process above, but tweak fuel pressure instead of the k-value). So the size at 4-bar is approx 437cc/min. Hmmm.

Here's where life is good, guess what ecu is close enough to 437? GTi-R! Take advant age of it, switch to using that as your base rom. The advantage here is now you don't have to worry about changing the starting injection pulsewidth table, its already close enough that your car should start and idle just fine. Also, you don't have to worry about the TTPmax or TTPmin tables, they're correct too. So finish adjusting for the injector sizes: You got this right above, but use the k-value you just calculated for the Z32 maf. So hB88D x (380/437) = A07B. Tune this based on the alpha, or just tune fuel pressue, both get the same result.

Now the last part, the actual maps. You've got two problems here: first the gti-r is mapped for a larger load (TP axis) and the maps are much too aggressive for a U12 det. You've got a chioce on the load axis, you can either use the GTiR TP values and extend the U12 maps or you adjust the U12 TP scale for the change in injector size and leave it mapped to the same amount. I would adjust the TP scale for the change in injector size. You did this correctly before, but I would use 380/437 (that won't change it that much from your values).

One quick note on the TP axis: I find its easier to work with if you convert these numbers to volumetric effeciency. I'll let you smart guys figure that one out, I need someone to check my work.

Edit: The U12 bin is the most conservative stock det bin. Its very conservative. Compare the maps with the U13 bin to see where you can go and still be very safe. I'd start with the U12 maps, when your happy the car isn't going to blow up start moving everything to the U13 values.
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Last edited by Calum : 04-05-2005 at 04:09 PM.
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Old 04-05-2005, 11:20 PM   #6 (permalink)
Crim
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OK, so taking your advice Calum, I want to use the GTiR rom instead of the U12. However It appears as *** the GTiR uses a completly different maf then the U12/DE maf. So what value would I use to convert the K value from a GTiR maf -> Z32 Maf? Is this information listed somewhere? Or some forumla for it?

Thanks!
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Old 04-06-2005, 08:21 AM   #7 (permalink)
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Use the value calculated above. Your converting a DE maf to a Z32. Don't use the GTi-R k-value as a starting point, use the DE. What the GTiR rom gives you is correct other values you now don't have to worry about.
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Old 04-06-2005, 09:02 AM   #8 (permalink)
Crim
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Calum
Use the value calculated above. Your converting a DE maf to a Z32. Don't use the GTi-R k-value as a starting point, use the DE. What the GTiR rom gives you is correct other values you now don't have to worry about.

AH I'm not quite sure what my thought process was last night, but you're right. Since we calculated the K value for the Z32 maf + ~440cc injectors this should work at the K value for the GTiR rom. Then when I load the VQ maps, all should be good.

Much Appreciated!
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Old 04-06-2005, 09:38 AM   #9 (permalink)
Crim
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Ok to repeat heres what I Have:

GTiR Base ROM:

For the ~440cc Z32 K value I took the DE 370cc K value: 53E3(hex) or 21475(dec)

To convert to Z32 Maf: 21475(dec) * 2.2 = 47245(dec) or B88E(hex)
To convert to 4bar (~437cc): 47245(dec) * (380/437) = 41083(dec) or A07B(hex)

Plug this value of A07B into the GTiR Rom, and then Loaded the Z32 VG Maps. Since ~437cc is roughly equal to 440cc this should work, with the possibility of some minor tweaking with fuel pressure.

Now we need to remap the TP axis (with the U12 axis scale) for the fuel and ignition timing maps. I read the values from the stock U12 ECU and multiplied them by (380/437) = ~.87. I replaced each of the TP axis values with this calculated value.

Then I just need to go thru the Fuel and Ignition timing maps and make them a bit more safe, especialy since I'm running a 9.5 DE engine. These maps should have been tuned for the 8.3:1 CR of the GTiR block.

Awesome, really appreciate the walk thru Calum.

One last question, from reading devins HOWTO on ztechz I understand (or think I do) the knock maps. For the timing map, any value over 128 or h80 is considered part of the knock map. A timing value of 0 also starts at this value.

My question is, for timing these knock maps are along the max edge of the TP scale. So if there is NO knock detected what does the ECU read at these points, the last value just to the left of the knock maps?

The fuel maps appears to be sort of opposite. The knock maps are located on the low end of the TP scale. So under WOT/high load will it just ignore the fuel knock maps?

I couldn't really find much information on these maps, seems as *** most just take em out.
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Old 04-06-2005, 03:46 PM   #10 (permalink)
JayLew
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Crim
My question is, for timing these knock maps are along the max edge of the TP scale. So if there is NO knock detected what does the ECU read at these points, the last value just to the left of the knock maps?
Just subtract 128 from any blue cell to find out what timing your ECU runs in that given cell.
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Old 04-06-2005, 04:36 PM   #11 (permalink)
Crim
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JayLew
Just subtract 128 from any blue cell to find out what timing your ECU runs in that given cell.
I have that much figured out, and theres a similar value for the fuel maps that i can't think of off the top of my head...however...I was under the impression the ecu only reads these blue cells when it detects knock. Is this not true?

Assuming that the ECU only reads these values when it detects knock, my question is: Since these bluecells are on the right side of the tpscale, what does the ecu read when it does NOT detect knock? The left most value for each rpm where there is not a knock map? Hope my question is clear..
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Old 04-06-2005, 06:21 PM   #12 (permalink)
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No no, those areas are always used. What they mean is, while in that area the ecu then does some other function. For the timing map it means the ecu "listens" to the knock sensor. For the fuel map it means the ecu switches on the closed loop program.

One suggestion, don't start with the values on the gtir rom and tune down, start with the u12 rom maps and work up. Much safer.
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