A community of enthusiasts dedicated to Nissan's SR20DE/SR20VE/SR20DET engines.
Start here: forum search. Be sure to search on what you're looking for before posting a new thread.
You are currently browsing the forum as a guest. In order to access special features, the image gallery, and post you will need to be a registered member. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free so please, join our community today!
If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact the administrator.
I just can not catch a break with alignment shops. Ever since getting my car on the road over a year ago, (All new suspension and wheels and tires) I have had 4 alignments. My car STILL eats the inside edge of the tires, mostly in the rear.
Here is a pic: Click on the pic for a link to the fullsize pic
That tire is just about shot and only has 25K on it. The inside tread is at about 10% at best, the rest at about 80%.
So, I have decided it is time to do it myself. You know the sayin, "If you want something done right, you have to do it yourself. Alignment is the only thing I let someone else do. Everything else on the car I do myself.
So, I have read a bunch of sites and all of Steve Foltz's posts on DIY alignment, and I think I am ready to tackle it myself.
I have a really good laser level, but need toe plates, and haven't decided yet, on the caster/camber gauge. I have thought about buying this one, but may just make my own like Steve posted. Just not sure how to, as his pics are gone from his post.
Are tow plates better than a toe bar? I thought about these plates , but not sure if they are overkill or not. I also was looking at my car, and it looks like toe plates may hit the spash guards depending on how wide they are. Anyone run into this problem?
Any other tips or ideas you guys have is appreciated.
One last question. If I get my alignment squared away, can I have the tires turned around (As they are directional), to get some more life out of them?
Uh, Yea, -1.5 camber will kill tires , even -1.0 camber will kill them , I went to -.5 on the front of my Altima now that its a Driver and not the "Hot Rod" to help keeping the inside edges from wearing , -1.0/-1.5 camber is great for handiling, but tire wear is just what happends with that kind of camber !!
__________________
SHAWN
Ger-Brock Performance
Portland OR.
'93 Altima SE 5spd. 13.97 @ 97.6 MPH All Motor !!
'98 Sentra SE.. Time Attack
'06 Pathfinder SE
'93 Infiniti G20 5spd.
13.08@107 MPH SR20DET T25 TMIC..
12.06@119 Built DET,T3/T04e/FMIC .... My Nissan Site !!
yeah its not your alignment dude, its your camber thats killin you. they can be perfectly aligned and goin straight but if you have neg camber, the insides of all your tires will wear. i had -2.0 camber on my b13 and went through 3 sets of tires in about 4 months before i finally figured out i needed a camber correction kit.
Camber doesn't kill tires, toe does. You are running toe out on all 4 corners. I'm running 1.5 degree front and 1.0 degree rear, and I have about 20k miles on my tires. All 4 show even wear with no rotation.
__________________
1996 200SX SE-R VE powered
1991 Sentra SE-R
2004 Subaru Forester turbo
2006 Mitsubishi Evolution IX
how is it toe? if your tires are leaning inwards from the camber, how can that NOT wear them out? all the pressure is being put on the inside of those tires, so thats whats causing the wear.
Miles on the car? Year? If your front end is loose (meaning bad tie rods, ball joints, or bearings, etc...) this will affect the alignment. Usually if one of these are bad, shops will let you know that the alignment isn't even worth doing t'il its fixed. Other then that, maybe it was aligned perfect but the person doing the work may not have fully tighten the bolts or nuts.
I've seen and use this alignment machine before and a bad tie rod will make your day if your trying to set the toe dead center.
you don't get much inside wear from camber unless you go to like -2.5-3 degrees. I've always run around -1.7. You'll only wear out the inside edge a lot with camber if you're spinning or locking the tires (causing them to slide against road).
Toe-out kills tires very quickly. On the order of only 10k miles. It's because when you have toe-out, the tires are essentially sliding/scrubbing the entire way. The tire is point out to the side right? But it's going straight and not the way it's pointed. Therefore, you basically dragging it sideways which is why toe-out (and too much toe-in for that matter) kills tires so quickly.
And you got 25k miles out of your tires? I usually only get about 15k
__________________
Khiem
'96 SE-R.... boost, brakes, suspension, etc... sold
'05 Evo
'05 CBR 600RR
how is it toe? if your tires are leaning inwards from the camber, how can that NOT wear them out? all the pressure is being put on the inside of those tires, so thats whats causing the wear.
Toe out causes the tires to scrub the inside edge, and toe in scrubes the outside edge.
well i know i put on 2" lowering springs (therefore i assumed i have -2.0 camber) and i went through 3 sets of tires in 4 months (which previously i would get about 40k out of the tires).... because the insides of the tires were wearing down to the wire. after i put on the correction kit i havent had them wear as bad at all. i have had this set for about a year (10-15k) with no major problems.
P10 G20's have no camber adjustment, and there is to my knowledge only one camber adjustment kit. It is sold in Japan and is extremely expensive. When a G20 is lowered, the best of the best can align it and the inside tread will still wear down way before the rest of the tire. This is because of camber not toe. Nature of the beast.
If his camber is out of whack, which after reading his specs, it is, that will cause exactly the tread wear he is experiencing.
Lucky for him, there are camber kits for his car...
__________________
Brandon
'02 Maxima SE 6MT
'96 G20 (SOLD)
Yea , I ran -1.0 on the front for a long time , always had tire wear on the inner edge , now with the toe exactly the same , with camber -.5 they are wearing good ... Toe will have an affect on the wear , but not as much as his -1.5 camber !!
Thanks for all the responses. From all the research I have done, Eric96ser is correct, it is the toe. My camber is not that much more negative then it was stock, and I never had this problem. The alignment shops for some reason keep insisting on setting up the car with toe out, even though I have asked for zero toe.
And since it is wearing the rear tires more (which have less toe out), my feeeling is the thrust angle is off as well.
It definitely is not something worn out. The car has all new ball joints, tie rods, struts and all hardware, all ES bushings, etc. All bolts have been checked for tightness and torqued to spec.
I still am figuring out which tools I need to do the alignments myself Kinda hoping Steve Foltz replies to this, as he is the alignment guru aroud here.
First off a couple things. Suspension design plays a roll in what is going on with a car. Take a B14. It has 1.3 degrees of rear camber stock and nearly a 1/4 inch of toe in. Tire wear is normal. Do the same thing to a B13 and you will have some issues. IRS cars have Bump Steer that causes the toe to change as the car corners and the wheels move. Also, 1/4 in of toe in is for some reason far less of and issue then 1/8 inch of toe out. Don't know why but it just is. When you align a car with 3 degree's of camber you can get decent/semi even wear if you set the car up for zero toe. Add any toe in or out and you will watch the tires disappear. I ran 3 degrees for front camber on my B14 with minimal issues. But if you have 40 series tires camber is far more a issue. 205/50 tires are much more forgiving then really low profile tires. I had some inside wear but running the car at the track kinda evened things out. I never corded a tire but I did get a little ridge on the inside. Also, about real alignment machines. They are great but have one major failing. They measure off the wheel not the hub. If the wheel is bent then the alignment is off. Using toe plates measures off the tire (also not that great) but you can rotate the tire 180 degrees and get a better measurement then many people get measuring off the wheel. Good tires are generally pretty true/straight, cheap ones are not. BTW, Look at the next BMW and Mercedes that you see. You will see 5 little holes thru the wheels near the lugs. Those holes allow the aligment machine to rest against the hub and actually give a far better result.
About the equipment you posted links too. I love those toe plates. They are triple the cost of regular toe plates but allow you to do it by yourself. My wife should get me a set for christmas. They are way overkill for most people buy awefull nice. Longacre has some nice plates for 50 bucks that work well. You can rest a toolbox against your plate to hold it against your tires and then use some duct tape to hold the tape end ins the groves. It's your call, is that worth the extra $100.
Camber Gauge. Well I am not a fan of those fancy camber gauges. They are complicated and expensive. I like my little 1 inch angle iron with some holes taped in it for the screw. I can take a couple pictures and host them for you guys on my free member hosting . Pictures worth a 1000 words. I will do that soon.
In the end you need a level floor. You need the shims and water level to get the floor even. Also, on a B13/S1X you will need a friend to help with thrust. You must get the camber very close to even on each axle to do thrust with a laser level and toe plates. I will go take some pictures now and post more latter.
These are the tools you mentioned.
To measure camber you simple need to know the angle of the tire. The angle iron/aluminum rest against the bottom of the wheel (nest to the tire) and then you use the screw to push the top in and out. You use the level to find out when the tool is perfectly straight up and down. If it takes 3/4 inch of the screw sticking out up top to get the level perfect then you look at the sheet in the right column and find out what ¾ of an inch is over 16 inches. You can see on the one angle iron there are two screws. You don’t always need two screws but sometimes you have a car with a huge tire bulge (big tire/small wheel). Then the tool will hit the tire before it actually touch’s the wheel when you have very little camber. So you can set the bottom to ½ inch and then the top is always deducted by ½ in the final measurement. You can also put multiple holes with the proper taps for the screw for a variety of tire sizes. You can see some extra ones in that one piece.
The Laser and that little read thing allow you to rest the laser on the rear tire toe plate and then shoot the laser to the front tire toe plate and hit that red card shaped thing. It has a scale on it and you can see if the wheel is pointed more on one side vs the other. Ideally you want the laser to hit the same mark when used on both sides. This is tough to do because you are amplifying the measurement by 96 inch’s or more. Hope all this helps. This is what you get when you call me “Guru”, I all of a sudden become helpful. Now if I could just get my wife to call me “King”
Steve, that was just plain AWESOME, Thanks so much.
Just a couple of questions. First, what is that red card shaped thing, and where can I get it. It appears to be made by Dewalt. Second, I assume you use 2 people to do thrust alignment. One to hold the level, and one the card thing? Any ideas how to secure a laser level to a toe plate, so you can make it a 1 person job? (My wife hates having to help with anything related to working on the car. She rather not even go in the garage )
Third, on thrust alignment, I assume, you want to set the toe to zero up front, before setting thrust and toe in the rear?
I might just get the cheap plates to start, and if I find I am succesful and end up doing alot of alignments, I will get the good plates. Oh, the question I asked earlier, is there any concern of the plates hitting the splash guards or the body for that matter?
I got mine at Lowes, I go most the items at Lowes. Be aware the cheap $20 laser are probably not precise enough for this process. Mine cost $50. The good lasers have the specs on them on how accurate they are.
Quote:
Originally Posted by johnand
Second, I assume you use 2 people to do thrust alignment. One to hold the level, and one the card thing? Any ideas how to secure a laser level to a toe plate, so you can make it a 1 person job? (My wife hates having to help with anything related to working on the car. She rather not even go in the garage )
You are going to need two people for the laser unless you get real creative on attaching it to the rear toe plate and aiming it just right to the front card. That would not be easy to be honest. Always measure with the laser and the card at the lower ball joint height to minimize any differences of camber from side to side. Once people find out they can learn to do a alignment you would be suprized how many people show up for "help"
Quote:
Originally Posted by johnand
Third, on thrust alignment, I assume, you want to set the toe to zero up front, before setting thrust and toe in the rear?
Front toe does not really matter with thrust. Just needs to be close to right. Just have the car pulled in straight. Don't worry about the wheel at this stage. Pull the car straight in and back it up and roll it forward. The front "thrust" will be adjusted at the end with a test drive. Rear thrust will throw the front off. Think about it like this. If the rear is at a angle to the front and then you move it to be straight behind the rear then the front will now be off. Start with camber front and rear. Then get the rear toe close to right. Then check the rear thrust with the laser. Adjust the final toe in the rear to correct for the thrust difference. Then do the front toe and drive the car to be sure the wheel is straight. Adjust the front tie rods to get the wheel straight. Always roll the car back and forth to let the tires take a natural set between adjustments.
Quote:
Originally Posted by johnand
I might just get the cheap plates to start, and if I find I am succesful and end up doing alot of alignments, I will get the good plates. Oh, the question I asked earlier, is there any concern of the plates hitting the splash guards or the body for that matter?
Yes, Plates can hit those things. It's not normally a problem because you just shift the plate forward. Just have them rest against the wheels the same on each side. Unless you have a body kit it's not ussually a problem.
Steve, again, Thanks!! I think I got the basics now.
I will get the parts on order and make the others shortly. I will post again after I attempt the alignment, as there may be more questions
Oh, as far as the laser level, I am just going to use the one from work. It is a precision laser level with an accuracy of 1/8" @100ft. I think that should be accurate enough
. Pictures worth a 1000 words. I will do that soon. 
)