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Here are the news, what I have done during 1, 5 months.
News are: NISMO LSD installed, custom made 3 puck clutch disk installed, MSS installed and VVL working, first dyno run is done and first rally done and finished with very good results.
Last 2 weeks I have spent every evening after work in garage. Main reason for that was that last weekend I had first rally in this season.
Two weeks ago I have got VVL working. I spent lot of time with wiring, but finally its done for now. I ordered Greddy MSS end of December from states thru http://www.proparts.ee/?l=1 and it took about one month to get it. I had big problems with programming (because all manuals are available in Japanese), but I got good tips how to program it from here http://www.sr20forum.com/neovvl-guides/104774-how-configure-greddy-mss.html
I also used relays for nice install and safety reasons.
Also end of December I ordered NISMO LSD for my open diff gearbox, from Japan thru and received it after 3 weeks of waiting. 2 days before rally got it in and it feels nice. It was good improvement on icy roads to get good stage times.
With nismo LSD I installed also a custom made racing clutch. Clutch is made in Finland by experts they now very well this things.
I have also ordered new 5:0 final drive for my gearbox. It will be custom made here in Estonia by people who are making racing gearboxes. Hope to get it ready and installed in middle of March.
Last week I went to duno to find out how VE, DE ecu, DE MAF and VE injectors perform all together. Before dyno I removed cat and now I have 2,5 exhaust.
Result was little disappointed, but at least now I know, what I need to improve during next week. Best result - 173 HP (crank) and 205 Nm torque, timing advanced to maximum (distributor fully advanced), both cams activated already at 3500!!! rpm (higher rpm VVL kick in gave me lower HP and TQ readings), with 4th gear. With wideband lambda sensor we found out, that engine runs extremely rich, especially in upper rpm (6-7,5 krpm) and this is the main reason for so low numbers. A/F readings were about 10,5:1 10,8:1. Now need to put in DE injectors. According dyno people I can estimate some 20 HP more, when I will get A/F ratio about 13:1 13,5 :1 range.
But even with this set-up car feels very strong, compared DE.
And about first rally I have never got so good overall stage times, and overall class win was very close for me. But during rally once engine stopped. Ignition wire between distributor and coil gets loose from ignition coil, and it took for me 3 min to find out the problem, start car and continue. But I made several best stage times VE power feels nice with Nismo LSD!
Here are the news, what I have done during 1, 5 months.
News are: NISMO LSD installed, custom made 3 puck clutch disk installed, MSS installed and VVL working, first dyno run is done and first rally done and finished with very good results.
Great to hear from you Vahur. Let us know how you are doing in your rallies. Is there any web page in Estonia with the results or whatever?
Quote:
Last 2 weeks I have spent every evening after work in garage. Main reason for that was that last weekend I had first rally in this season.
I hope you enjoyed it!
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I also used relays for nice install and safety reasons.
Always prudent to do so. Especially in a rally car where reliability is a MUST.
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Also end of December I ordered NISMO LSD for my open diff gearbox, from Japan thru http://www.artman-racing.ee/eng/, and received it after 3 weeks of waiting. 2 days before rally got it in and it feels nice. It was good improvement on icy roads to get good stage times.
Nice addition. How much did it cost to get it?
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With nismo LSD I installed also a custom made racing clutch. Clutch is made in Finland by experts they now very well this things.
Again, price from Finland? What type of clutch is it? Custom clutch disk, custom pressure plate, custom everything, or what?
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I have also ordered new 5:0 final drive for my gearbox. It will be custom made here in Estonia by people who are making racing gearboxes. Hope to get it ready and installed in middle of March.
Now thi sis interesting!!! I know a lot of people who would enjoy such a gizmo if the price was right! Maybe you can somehow recover some of the cost if you arrange some kind of group-buy deal for it!
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Last week I went to duno to find out how VE, DE ecu, DE MAF and VE injectors perform all together. Before dyno I removed cat and now I have 2,5 exhaust.
Result was little disappointed, but at least now I know, what I need to improve during next week. Best result - 173 HP (crank) and 205 Nm torque, timing advanced to maximum (distributor fully advanced), both cams activated already at 3500!!! rpm (higher rpm VVL kick in gave me lower HP and TQ readings), with 4th gear.
DId you actually tried the 3500rpm activation versus other acivation points and got best results at 3500rpm?????? Funny but we had just this discussion last week in the forum!
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With wideband lambda sensor we found out, that engine runs extremely rich, especially in upper rpm (6-7,5 krpm) and this is the main reason for so low numbers. A/F readings were about 10,5:1 10,8:1. Now need to put in DE injectors. According dyno people I can estimate some 20 HP more, when I will get A/F ratio about 13:1 13,5 :1 range.
But even with this set-up car feels very strong, compared DE.
Sorry to bring this up but... I told you so!!! Put the DE injectors in. YOur engine should be much happier! Oh, and 13.5:1 is a bit on the lean side. Close to 13 or just a bit richer would be OK for a rally car I think.
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And about first rally I have never got so good overall stage times, and overall class win was very close for me. But during rally once engine stopped. Ignition wire between distributor and coil gets loose from ignition coil, and it took for me 3 min to find out the problem, start car and continue. But I made several best stage times VE power feels nice with Nismo LSD!
Start figuring ways to "lock" everything in place! This is funny but this is exactly what happened to me back 2 decades ago when I first run a rally event here! After an unexpected jump the car just died. 3 minutes later (funny how it takes everyone 3 minutes to figure this one out!!!) we found the distributor wire loose! We happily made it to the end of the "normal" stage at the last possible second without penalty!
i have to agree with hpro. Put the de injector back again or buy a SAFC and lean it out. A/F readings from 12.8 - 13.2 are ideal >5500 rpms.
also the hp figures are somewhat low for the crank. After installing my HS CAI and fixing my A/F ratio to ideal, i put down 194 crank hp. i have regular de motor with jwt S4 cams, header, cai, exhaust and safcII.
Also i think you swich solinoids too early. Try both inlet and exhaust at 4700rpm.
Regarding clutch - I changed only disk, pressure plate is made by LUK, and this is ok at the moment. Disk is little used, by friend who also was driving Nissan on rallies. But he made bigger modifications with gearbox, and it did not fit anymore for his box. Price for new disk in Finland is about 180 EUR (about 220 US dollars) for new, I paid half of it.
About 5:0 final drive: I think better way is just to wayt, when I will get my unit ready and installed. Then I can give for you, guys my impressions about it. But it's again custom made, not serial product. I know it will be little noisy (not good for everyday use), but for me doesnt matter. At least, I know few person, who have ordered final drive from him for rally purpose and they are happy. I will speak with him about possibility to make them more, if sr20forum people are interested about and about price. Unit price for me with installation is about 500.- EUR. And top speed of the car will dramatically drop down, somebody maybe can calculate it with some formula. From friends experience, max top speed will be about 170km/h.
About VVL activation - I really tried higher solenoid switch points. I started from 5500 rpm. And went down with every dyno run. Really best results i have got on 3500 rpm.
Defenetly I will change the injectors now, and we will see, what will happend. But I have difficulties to remove DE injectors from DE fuel rail - any help would be appreciated! I am afraid to breake injectors. Dont know, how to take them off
Results from my rally are shown here http://www.rally.ee/?a=a058&b=1991
I am in place 55 , but you can see - 2 best stage times, and 5 top three stage times on my class - I am very pleased.
[quote=hpro123]Great to hear from you Vahur. Let us know how you are doing in your rallies. Is there any web page in Estonia with the results or whatever?
>>I hope you enjoyed it!
Yes I did, a lot!!!
Vahur
Last edited by Sunny gti : 07-12-2005 at 07:27 AM.
heh i love your car, it looks wicked thrashing through the snow
I hope you made sure you bedded the lsd in properlly before you took it out rallying
To get your cam points right, do a run on the low cam, then a run on the high cam. Where the 2 power graphs intersect is where your change over point should be. Then get the mss to switch OFF a few hundred rpms lower so if you are sitting at an almost constant rpm they dont keep switching on and off repeatedly
I did dyno run with 4th gear, maybe this is the reason for low HP numbers?
I have read from sr20forum that normally people are using 3rd gear??
It was recommendation from dyno people. They told that with 4th gear the result is more realistic, because gear ratios are most close to 1,0?
This dyno shop was opened just 1,5 month ago, maybe they are rookies and dont know how to do it right
Could anybody give professional opinion about it?
I tried also higer VVL activation points (started from 5500, and went down with every run), but best result was 3500 rpm.
vahur
QUOTE=alex29]i have to agree with hpro. Put the de injector back again or buy a SAFC and lean it out. A/F readings from 12.8 - 13.2 are ideal >5500 rpms.
also the hp figures are somewhat low for the crank. After installing my HS CAI and fixing my A/F ratio to ideal, i put down 194 crank hp. i have regular de motor with jwt S4 cams, header, cai, exhaust and safcII.
Also i think you swich solinoids too early. Try both inlet and exhaust at 4700rpm.
Doesnt really make a whole lot of difference on what gear you use, in terms of the overall HP, maybe a couple of hp. A big reason why a lot of places do it in the 3rd gear, is because the jap ecus are speed limitted to 180 and you will hit that in 4th. Id get someone to tune it with an aftermarket ecu. Or at least get some more fuel in there with an adjustable FPR. Id be tempted to put in a bigger fuel pump too, the stock ones are fairly sh*t. The last thing you want is to be leaning out at 7,500rpm
Ok, VE--> DE injector swap is done. Will go tomorrow to dyno, to see the results.
What is the recommendation for timing?
Setup:
DE MAF
DE ECU
DE injectors
VE
About 15 degrees?
I think some 20-21 degree would be ok only with VE injectors.
Dyno trip is made, results are still disappointing. 177 crank HP (4 HP more), about 6500 rpm and 215 Nm (10 more) torque about 4800 rpm. Because i have some troubles with MSS, i activated solenoids just with manual switch already at idle. Timing set to 17 degree.
A/F is now with DE injectors at WOT about 13,2-13,6. (it means little lean, should install FPR, to adjust it to 12,8).
I estimated some 200 crank HP?
You are definitely TOO LEAN now.
SR20DEs (and I do not see why this would be different with a VE) running on non-racing fuel are most happy at just below 13.1:1-13:1. Of course, I find it difficult to justify 15-20 crank hp loss from the AFR only.
Anyway, start figuring out the fueling problems. Check as per FSM at least the fuel pressure. Then take it from there for improvements.
Dyno trip is made, results are still disappointing. 177 crank HP (4 HP more), about 6500 rpm and 215 Nm (10 more) torque about 4800 rpm. Because i have some troubles with MSS, i activated solenoids just with manual switch already at idle. Timing set to 17 degree.
A/F is now with DE injectors at WOT about 13,2-13,6. (it means little lean, should install FPR, to adjust it to 12,8).
I estimated some 200 crank HP?
Not arguing here, just interested Vahur.
Why did you estimate 200 crank HP?
Where would the additional +15-13 crank hp over a mint condition stock SR20VE come from?
<Max power was 175.6whp and 136wtq. The cams switch at 4200 and <about 4900.
he is talking about 175 wheel hp which are at the 200 crank area.
My dynoruns where done with 4 gear, i put down 195 crank hp and 20.6Nm torgue. My friend who owns the dyno, has an sr20ve, installed in his almera.
he uses everything from the ve motor, and after we installed the mss he put down 190 crank hp with 3 gear and 192 at the speed limit of the 4 gear. if the speed limit didnt exist he would have exceed 200 crank hp with 4 gear .
Thats why i am telling you that the hp numbersfrom your VE motor seem low.
finally our A/F where both at the range of 12.8 to 13.2 at full throdle.
We could put it at 13.2 all the time but gains are minimal.
Try to advance your timming to 21 or use everything from the ve motor and see what happens.
Dyno trip is made, results are still disappointing. 177 crank HP (4 HP more), about 6500 rpm and 215 Nm (10 more) torque about 4800 rpm. Because i have some troubles with MSS, i activated solenoids just with manual switch already at idle. Timing set to 17 degree.
A/F is now with DE injectors at WOT about 13,2-13,6. (it means little lean, should install FPR, to adjust it to 12,8).
I estimated some 200 crank HP?
What could be wrong?
Vahur
Most people running the DE ecu are going with 21-22 degrees timing. 13.5 is about perfect if just a touch lean. Becuase you race I would go a touch richer just to be safe. I would shoot for right around 13.0-13.2. 12's is far to rich I would think. Especially in the snow.
ok...VE have in stock 187 crank HP.
With better intake, JWT ecu, good header and 2,5"-3" exhaust people are getting 175 whp, which is about 205 crank hp.
Some people have got even with stock DE ecu 175 whp.
Vahur
Why did you estimate 200 crank HP?
Where would the additional +15-13 crank hp over a mint condition stock SR20VE come from?
Chris
Last edited by Sunny gti : 02-27-2005 at 02:28 PM.
, but you can see - 2 best stage times, and 5 top three stage times on my class - I am very pleased.
