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Originally Posted by jer_760
I want to supports Charles because he has gone out of his way for us. Why should I buy Franklin or Kelford cams just because they are there? These cams will be to match my personal preference. Where did anyone say that they wanted to throw huge cams in their stock motor?
OK, we got told to start another thread rather than stomp all over Charle's dyno results (fair enough) so I wanted to answer this question.
Kelford custom builds its cams to your motor, good option if you know all of your specs.
Franklin responded to calls for VE cams by making a drop-in option that were more plug 'n play.
Both of these companies stepped up where others haven't. In return poor Franklin have had nothing but bitching & whining & in a gesture of good faith even sent 2K NZ worth of cams, valves & retainers to the USA for free so that you could have your beloved dyno figures.
Franklin doesn't need the VE community, the VE community needs them... some support may have meant a lot more cam options would have come out of this company by now.
Charles has also done his bit for the community and deserves credit too but I wonder if the other USA cam companies have taken a look at this community & seen the lack of support for those who've responded so far & gone 'f@$% you!'
Originally Posted by jer_760
I want to supports Charles because he has gone out of his way for us. Why should I buy Franklin or Kelford cams just because they are there? These cams will be to match my personal preference. Where did anyone say that they wanted to throw huge cams in their stock motor?
OK, we got told to start another thread rather than stomp all over Charle's dyno results (fair enough) so I wanted to answer this question.
Kelford custom builds its cams to your motor, good option if you know all of your specs.
Franklin responded to calls for VE cams by making a drop-in option that were more plug 'n play.
Both of these companies stepped up where others haven't. In return poor Franklin have had nothing but bitching & whining & in a gesture of good faith even sent 2K NZ worth of cams, valves & retainers to the USA for free so that you could have your beloved dyno figures.
Franklin doesn't need the VE community, the VE community needs them... some support may have meant a lot more cam options would have come out of this company by now.
Charles has also done his bit for the community and deserves credit too but I wonder if the other USA cam companies have taken a look at this community & seen the lack of support for those who've responded so far & gone 'f@$% you!'
So do you want your cams back?
Personally, as one of the only people who have ran the kelford cams, they suck to but i didnt get to do much with em.
I'll dyno the cams for you and your kiwi buddies but just overnight me a 20v clutch setup or a b15/p11 transmission and i'll gladly go right to the dyno.
The issue is we have a couple people on here that want specifics and everyone else on this forum follows them like lost sheep to the shepard. If the cams do what they say then we are all set here! People shouldn't rely on Charles having to dyno all these different cams/headers/intakes and so on. People need to start doing it themselves. Problem is, no one knows how to swap cams or make adjustments so they depend on others to do it all for them. This whole situation had me sick from the beginning.
Again, thanks to the cam developers and to charles for all the testing and hard work. But everyone else, please just take action and be proactive in finding what cam best suits you!!!!
Brent
__________________ Coach - EEN Member/The Fist Don't F with me!
1993 NX 2000 -- Slate Grey Metallic bitches
1999 SE-L -- Turbo stuff on it
I wouldn't mind doing this, but seeing as I don't have a FWD car or a VE motor (or even just the head), my input's useless.
However, I think part of the reason why people want the dynos so badly is because they want to see if these cams will actually deliver what they promise, as sometimes figures on paper don't really translate to better real life numbers.
Originally Posted by jer_760
I want to supports Charles because he has gone out of his way for us. Why should I buy Franklin or Kelford cams just because they are there? These cams will be to match my personal preference. Where did anyone say that they wanted to throw huge cams in their stock motor?
OK, we got told to start another thread rather than stomp all over Charle's dyno results (fair enough) so I wanted to answer this question.
Kelford custom builds its cams to your motor, good option if you know all of your specs.
Franklin responded to calls for VE cams by making a drop-in option that were more plug 'n play.
Both of these companies stepped up where others haven't. In return poor Franklin have had nothing but bitching & whining & in a gesture of good faith even sent 2K NZ worth of cams, valves & retainers to the USA for free so that you could have your beloved dyno figures.
Franklin doesn't need the VE community, the VE community needs them... some support may have meant a lot more cam options would have come out of this company by now.
Charles has also done his bit for the community and deserves credit too but I wonder if the other USA cam companies have taken a look at this community & seen the lack of support for those who've responded so far & gone 'f@$% you!'
Why do you care who I buy my cams from, who I trust and choose to support?
__________________ "I saw a priest being beaten, and I made a wish."
95 200sx
sr20ve
Problem is, no one knows how to swap cams or make adjustments so they depend on others to do it all for them. This whole situation had me sick from the beginning.
Brent
Amen.
Everyone is just waiting on results. Very few people want to step up and try new things. Thats why I for one keep to myself nowadays and only talk to those who have helped me along the way or those who I feel are actually trying to make some break throughs.
I know people will say we are on a budget but, let me tell you if anyone is putting a car together on a budget that is me.
Once again big up to Charles. He has been a massive amount of help to me. I will continue to support him and his efforts in any way I can.
__________________ -Rob- Get ready for a big SE-Rprise
I wouldn't mind doing this, but seeing as I don't have a FWD car or a VE motor (or even just the head), my input's useless.
However, I think part of the reason why people want the dynos so badly is because they want to see if these cams will actually deliver what they promise, as sometimes figures on paper don't really translate to better real life numbers.
Best quote of this thread. Hard to justify spending lots of bucks on cams if the specs look good but the power isn't backing up the specs. Kelfords are still up in the air, Franklin S4s supposedly work well in high compression VEs down under. I don't doubt the results they have gained through trial and error but the R&D is more dependent on dyno research here in the forums. Who's to say if NZ members tried Chuck's custom cams and see if they perform as good if not better than the Kelford or Franklin cams. The best thing about our VEs is now we have even more options to make more power with what is available. Charles has made that a priority with his limited time and he has my support without question. Seems like the only option worth testing aside from N1s and Chucks custom cams would be the S4s for the most power.
Why do you care who I buy my cams from, who I trust and choose to support?
I care who you choose to support because it's this support that makes decent businesses (like Franklin's) continue to be involved in our community.
Hypothetical question for you: If, say, Charles put in many thousands of dollars and dozens of hours designing some powerful cams for the VE and a chinese company started making knock-offs and selling them for 3/4 the price, who would you support? The business (or individual) that did all the R&D, or the business that copied the design and sold it cheaper?
I care who you choose to support because it's this support that makes decent businesses (like Franklin's) continue to be involved in our community.
Hypothetical question for you: If, say, Charles put in many thousands of dollars and dozens of hours designing some powerful cams for the VE and a chinese company started making knock-offs and selling them for 3/4 the price, who would you support? The business (or individual) that did all the R&D, or the business that copied the design and sold it cheaper?
I would supports Charles, no questions asked. If I was worried about price than I wouldn't be putting up $650 for 20V cams, so Charles could measure them. To me, that's the least I could do for everything he has done for us.
Hypethetical question for you: If you guys lived in the US, would you be making such a big deal about people choosing Chuck over Franklin?
Since I got kicked out of the other thread, I'll add something to this one.
I feel Charles is caught in middle of this on going cam saga. You have to remember the original agreement was made between Franklin and Andreas, that's it, not Franklin and Charles. Franklin sent over the S4 to Andreas to be tested for free, yet for some reason Andreas passed them on to Charles. After half a year since the S4 has been sent, they still have not been dynoed and the natives grow restless.
It's not Charles fault that the S4 has not been dynoed. He has his own priorities, which is to test his cams and headers first. This is very understandable. Again, Charles never made an agreement with Franklin.
Now lets look at Franklin's perspective. They originally sent over the cams to be tested by an independent user, but some how the cams would up in hands of a competitor. Basically, Charles is a competitor in the cam market because he is coming out with his own.
In the end, will the S4 will get a fair shake? I don't think so. Too many hard feelings going around.
You are right. And you didnt get kicked out of the other thread. I asked a mod to delete our posts because I didnt feel like it should have been taking up space in his thread, my posts included.
I care who you choose to support because it's this support that makes decent businesses (like Franklin's) continue to be involved in our community.
Hypothetical question for you: If, say, Charles put in many thousands of dollars and dozens of hours designing some powerful cams for the VE and a chinese company started making knock-offs and selling them for 3/4 the price, who would you support? The business (or individual) that did all the R&D, or the business that copied the design and sold it cheaper?
Why bother ask that question? it's the SR20 forum they will go with the china cams because they are cheaper. Then say chucks prices shouldn't have been so high.
Personally, as one of the only people who have ran the kelford cams, they suck to but i didnt get to do much with em.
I'll dyno the cams for you and your kiwi buddies but just overnight me a 20v clutch setup or a b15/p11 transmission and i'll gladly go right to the dyno.
I was under the impression that the most powerful NA VE here has Kelfords?
I never had a shot at you Charles, the question was asked why we should support Franklin & the answer is because they've done more than enough to deserve that. Franklin isn't just a cam company to us, Adrian is part of our community and we want to see him treated fairly after all he's done.
Remember that the original goal was Franklin vs N1 not Franklin vs Turbofreak. If the general consensus here is that everybody is prepared to wait until you come up with a better cam & then buy that then perhaps the Franklins, springs & retainers should be sent back to Adrian.
Since I got kicked out of the other thread, I'll add something to this one.
I feel Charles is caught in middle of this on going cam saga. You have to remember the original agreement was made between Franklin and Andreas, that's it, not Franklin and Charles. Franklin sent over the S4 to Andreas to be tested for free, yet for some reason Andreas passed them on to Charles. After half a year since the S4 has been sent, they still have not been dynoed and the natives grow restless.
It's not Charles fault that the S4 has not been dynoed. He has his own priorities, which is to test his cams and headers first. This is very understandable. Again, Charles never made an agreement with Franklin.
Now lets look at Franklin's perspective. They originally sent over the cams to be tested by an independent user, but some how the cams would up in hands of a competitor. Basically, Charles is a competitor in the cam market because he is coming out with his own.
In the end, will the S4 will get a fair shake? I don't think so. Too many hard feelings going around.
Bring on the flame.
I agree with every word you have said. I have a crazy amount of respect for Charles. He's worked his arse off and I've never personally had a gripe with him anyway. I also agree with your comments regarding the original deal, and that is where the issue lies. Not with Charles, but with an agreement being shunned.
Best of luck to ya Charles, lets hope this gearbox holds up!
__________________
Anybody who cannot comprehend mathematics is not fully human. At best he is a tolerable subhuman who has learned to wash, cook food, and not make messes on the floor.
Since I got kicked out of the other thread, I'll add something to this one.
I feel Charles is caught in middle of this on going cam saga. You have to remember the original agreement was made between Franklin and Andreas, that's it, not Franklin and Charles. Franklin sent over the S4 to Andreas to be tested for free, yet for some reason Andreas passed them on to Charles. After half a year since the S4 has been sent, they still have not been dynoed and the natives grow restless.
It's not Charles fault that the S4 has not been dynoed. He has his own priorities, which is to test his cams and headers first. This is very understandable. Again, Charles never made an agreement with Franklin.
Now lets look at Franklin's perspective. They originally sent over the cams to be tested by an independent user, but some how the cams would up in hands of a competitor. Basically, Charles is a competitor in the cam market because he is coming out with his own.
In the end, will the S4 will get a fair shake? I don't think so. Too many hard feelings going around.
Bring on the flame.
EXACTLY!!! The deal was with Andreas, so why were the cams handed off to someone else, who is now starting to make their own cams... Question, did charles decide to make his own cams before or after he recieved the stage 4's. Not so long ago I seem to remember a thread on a few american sites in uproar about how Hotshot was shutting down because other companies came in and made copies of their product and sold it cheaper....... Do you really wonder why "the natives are restless" when out of the good heart of Adrian to help out people over the other side of the world where there isnt really huge aftermarket support for the VE, they take this offering, dont come through on the original deal, take the specs of the cams... and then remarkably a "new design" of cams comes out from the person who was GIVEN them. I mean come on, show some respect. Adrians company is not a massive one at all, and by being kind to our community and yours he has just had business cut and all his R&D given away for free.
In my opinion everyone involved with taking the S4's and not going to every effort to keep to the arrangement should be ashamed. Send everything back if you dont plan on making use of them.
I would supports Charles, no questions asked. If I was worried about price than I wouldn't be putting up $650 for 20V cams, so Charles could measure them. To me, that's the least I could do for everything he has done for us.
Hypethetical question for you: If you guys lived in the US, would you be making such a big deal about people choosing Chuck over Franklin?
IF he was reverse-engineering and copying Franklin's designs, then I would be making a big deal out of it, regardless of where I lived. IF the situation was reversed, then I would be making a big deal out of it, but in support of Charles.
Please don't let bigotry or xenophobia creep into an international forum.
5 speed and punkoutnz are right on the money about the S4 issue. Truth of the matter if they are not going to be dynoed send them back. I personally don't think Charles would spec the S4s and disrespect the work that Adrian's company put into the cams by developing his own from those specs. Give credit to Adrian for at least extending a set of the S4s in good faith to test for free. We may never know the potential of these cams in our community only because they were never dynoed here. As said this is not Charles fault. Maybe the one that can shed light on this is the one who made the agreement with Franklin in the first place. Just a thought.....
I thought the agreement was that the cams would be sent to Andreas to be tested. Why did he not test them himself? Did he not agree with Franklin that he would do this?
Why do the cams need to be tested in Charles' new motor? What about the other guinea pig car(s) for example the ones running Charles' new grinds and header? Is there a good reason that the cams would be incompatible with this setup?
Franklin has a lot at stake here. sh*t happens, but so far they have held up their end of the bargain, but those on this side of the pond have not.
__________________
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EXACTLY!!! The deal was with Andreas, so why were the cams handed off to someone else, who is now starting to make their own cams... Question, did charles decide to make his own cams before or after he recieved the stage 4's. Not so long ago I seem to remember a thread on a few american sites in uproar about how Hotshot was shutting down because other companies came in and made copies of their product and sold it cheaper....... Do you really wonder why "the natives are restless" when out of the good heart of Adrian to help out people over the other side of the world where there isnt really huge aftermarket support for the VE, they take this offering, dont come through on the original deal, take the specs of the cams... and then remarkably a "new design" of cams comes out from the person who was GIVEN them. I mean come on, show some respect. Adrians company is not a massive one at all, and by being kind to our community and yours he has just had business cut and all his R&D given away for free.
In my opinion everyone involved with taking the S4's and not going to every effort to keep to the arrangement should be ashamed. Send everything back if you dont plan on making use of them.
My two cents
Paul
careful there tough guy never ever ever speak this negative about someone that has put his own time and effort into working to bring parts into a community full of cheap bastards.
I don't know you and you don't know me but i can tell you that there are better ways to ask a question than to make the one you did above.
