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I just wanted to share with everyone some of the stuff I have been learning about B14 suspension setup. I have know all along that the B14 is not going to respond to the same tuning as a B13 (because it just never did). After sinking tons of time, energy and money in my suspension I have learned that the most important thing to do to a B14 is get the rear beam bent to zero toe. It comes with ¼ inch of rear toe and that just makes the car handle like a pig in every corner. It understeers no matter what you do to it. Once you take that toe out it will be significantly better. The change is dramatic and until that is done you will not have a good handling car. The reason this is requires some visualization. Rear toe-in means that the rear tires are pointing toward the engine of the car/centerline of the car. When you turn the car into a corner most/all of the rear weight of the car shifts to the outside tire. This outside tire is pointed toward the corner and will do everything it can to follow the arc toward the corner due to that rear toe in. Now lets toe that rear tire “out” or the oppisite direction away from the engine/centerline of the car. Now when you turn the car into the corner the rear of the car will become loaded on the outside and that tire will try and take an outside track around the corner. In other words it will want to spin more readably. With a B14 rear beam the tires have minimal camber deflection/change under cornering and as a result the rear of the car is extremely stable/planted in a corner. You add that “toe in” and it is far to stable for competitive driving or even fun street driving. The b14 needs zero rear toe for properly handling of any sporting nature. Remember only about 5% of the b14’s were se-r’s and most are setup for the average person just going to work. I hope that helps people understand why a seemingly small change in alignment in the rear can make such a big difference in the way a car handles. Mike Kojima has stated on several occasions that with a Bent Rear Beam the B14 handles better on a roadcourse then a B13. After getting the beam bent you have some choices. All the discussion from this point forward assumes that you have a B14 with the Beam Bent to Zero toe.
Springs = The racers will say a small difference front to back is needed. 300f/250r that kind of thing. I can tell you that my car was awesome with 300/300 and big bars front and rear at the track. I think if I had a different front bar that would change. They say start with the springs setup. My plan is still to try several setups and see how it feels.
Swaybars Front = The B13 has a 28mm front bar that is solid (so I have been told). The Suspension Technique (ST) bar is poorly made so I wont recommend it (although I have one on my car for the time being). Whiteline has a 27mm solid bar that might be a great option because it uses the OEM endlinks, which is one of the major issues with the ST bar. Progress also has a excellent front adjustable bar but it is very expensive. Both Mike and Naji are running big front bars on their SE-R cup B14’s. I found I was able to use less front camber with the bigger bar and had better brakeing and acceleration traction with less front camber. For purely autocrossing the oem front bar is plenty but for highspeed work you will want a bigger front bar.
Swaybars Rear = In order of greatness: Progress, Stillen Whiteline, and ST. The last three all make adjustable rear bars. Progress and Stillen also support the rear-trailing arm of the axle adding some additional stiffness in that area. The ST bar is really too small. The Whiteline looks real nice for the price. Progress is the best BUT it is super expensive. Stillen is very nice also but not as easy to adjust as the progress from the looks of it. Time will tell.
Struts = Same as B13 for the most part. AGX’s, Koni’s, Motivational. This is a excellent thread about these options. Personally Bang for the Buck seems to be in the TEIN area right now.
Eric is trying to get me to come out to his area and bend some beams. If you are interested check out this thread.
Also, Mike Kojima and others chimed in over at Nissan forums about this topic as well. Interesting stuff here.
Only two people in the country do this work. Myself and Westend Alignment. http://www.nissanperformancemag.com/.../westend.shtml
Like I said in the first post, Eric wants me to bring this beam bending thing on the road. We are trying to get 5 people to do it in West Virginia area. I would be ok with traveling to do this if I have enough people to make it worth my while. I charge 100 per car but have agreed to lower the price for these beam bending parties to $75 if we get enough people.
Very good post Steve. As some of you know I am running the Tein SS coilovers(336lbs/in F and 280lbs/in R) on my B14 at the moment. I not complaints and it was a huge improvement in ride and performance over the Eibach Sportlines. Next on my list is the Whiteline swaybars(Hence the Group Buy). To be honest I really dont need the high-end progress bars, My car at the moment is 95% daily-driver. The price of the Whiteline bars is in my budget and at my skill level I probably would not be able to tell the difference between the current offerings. Getting the beam bent is also high on my list now that there is a place on the east coast to do it.
Steve, I dont know if you left them out for a reason but what about STBs and poly bushings. I currently have Courtesy Nissan STB F&R on my car and I did feel a positive change in the car. Your comments please. TIA
Originally posted by PatScottAKA99XE Steve, I dont know if you left them out for a reason but what about STBs and poly bushings. I currently have Courtesy Nissan STB F&R on my car and I did feel a positive change in the car. Your comments please. TIA
I left a lot of stuff off the list. Bushings, Strut bars, GC Camber Caster Plates or equivelent, Alignment. All of these items are important but not as debated as the basics that I mentioned. It was already a long post.
Bushings - Get them it makes a difference
GC - Plates are great. They are so nice to have for alignments. The GC Plates give you an extra 3/4 inch of travel. Travel is severly underrated. Shortened struts and The GC Plates help a great deal
Strut Bars - I like them front and rear. If you are getting to much understeer try removing the front bar. Especailly for autocrossing. I would put the bars on and tune with them in place. They can effect the balance of the car.
Alignment - 2.5 degrees camber with the big bars is a pretty good start. A touch of toe out is also great. Personally I hate zero toe. I would rather have a touch of toe in/out then have it actually set to zero. Especially on a street car. If you have the ability to adjust caster set it to as much positive as possible.
LSD - You need one. If you can afford the Nismo LSD get it. Otherwise the Phantom Grip is supposed to work well despite the that it should not perform well. The whole concept of a fast car is getting on the power sooner. To properly pull thru a corner you will benifit greatly from a LSD.
Can we sticky this? This would be great for future reference...
__________________ Sam Bass / 1998 200SX SE-R
Atlanta, Georgia
Mods: JWT POP Filter, 91 Intake Cam, Stillen 4-1 Header, N1-style muffler, Front and rear STBs, Motivational Rear Strut Mounts, Hyperco/AGX's, ES Front & Rear Motor Mounts, ES Shifter Bushing, Pacesetter Quickshifter | In the works: AD22 Brakes
Originally posted by coolblackser I live in Atlanta ( actually Marietta ) and would be willing to host the halfway place. $75 is very reasonable. SO count me in !!Steve.... does the beam have to be off for the bending?? Also do you know if the Whiteline rear swaybar is adjustable like the Progress rear bar?
Go to that link for the Whiteline group buy that I posted. Pat has a picture of the adjustable Whiteline rear bar. Very easy to adjust. The beam is taken care of while on the car.
Quote:
Originally posted by b12sr20ve question..why did nissan engineers didnt make the b14' beam zero toe??
The rumor is that the B13 was too tail happy in their view. I guess they forgot that the car was on the 10 best lists due in great part to the handling (as well as the engine). They fixed it on the B14 with the extra toe in. Once the toe is taken out the rear of the car will slide very predictably at the track. It is not snappy at all. I never spun my car once.
Originally posted by 98sr20ve
Now lets toe that rear tire “out” or the oppisite direction away from the engine/centerline of the car. Now when you turn the car into the corner the rear of the car will become loaded on the outside and that tire will try and take an outside track around the corner. In other words it will want to spin more readily. [/b]
I love the NX with 1/8th toe out in the rear and 1/4 in the front. It loves quick turns. but it's real darty on the highway, and rides the crown of the road. I also have -1.9* camber in front and -1.1* rear. I love it.
__________________
Nick McCollom
99 Infiniti G20
93 Nissan NX2000 14.027 @97.98 (N/A) I wish I had time and money again, this little car has sat for 2 years now. I do miss driving it bad. It will be back soon though faster than ever.
I feel it's necessary to help the N00bs out. Most if this is still current for B14 Hyperco's have come into play but there aren't many set's left for the B14. Anyone wishing to understand where to start should start reading here
How do you do this procedure? I am up here in Montana, so I can't have you guys do this, but I fabricate all kinds of stuff for cars and 4WDs, so I am fairly well tooled and experienced with tearing up vehicles.
Do you bend the rolled metal outer peice of the axle or the solid shaft inside?
Do you do this on the car with a jack or something or off the car with a shop press?
Sounds like a good mod, please let me know what you do. Thanks!
How do you do this procedure? I am up here in Montana, so I can't have you guys do this, but I fabricate all kinds of stuff for cars and 4WDs, so I am fairly well tooled and experienced with tearing up vehicles.
Do you bend the rolled metal outer peice of the axle or the solid shaft inside?
Do you do this on the car with a jack or something or off the car with a shop press?
Sounds like a good mod, please let me know what you do. Thanks!
Never mind, I found the pics from west end, this is a peice of cake!
Only two people in the country do this work. Myself and Westend Alignment. http://www.nissanperformancemag.com/.../westend.shtml
Like I said in the first post, Eric wants me to bring this beam bending thing on the road. We are trying to get 5 people to do it in West Virginia area. I would be ok with traveling to do this if I have enough people to make it worth my while. I charge 100 per car but have agreed to lower the price for these beam bending parties to $75 if we get enough people.
is there a part on the website where it says how much it would cost to go to Gardena, CA and have this done?
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by brooklyn nx
1: Dont give up 2: You need to get a job that pays a little better 3:Get a girlirfriend who supports your cause. I got 2 cars that need help and no steady work but that dont stop me from getting a little done at a time,If you love your car and love what you do youl get through it.
I found that the scott-russell linkage from a B15 SE-R Spec-V fits right onto a B14 with just drilling out one of the bushing holes to 14mm.
The B15 part is much stiffer, being fabricated from stampings so that it is hollow in cross section vs a wimpy I beam like the stock B14 part, with stiffer bushing with a forged aluminum locating link vs a wimpy steel one. I think for a B14 on R compound tires, this might make a big difference. I'll know how it helps handling soon as I can get some track time.
With R-Compounds I can feel flex back there. This should go a long way to stopping flex and lateral movment.
I'm sorry I didn't copy everyone else's setup. If you need a preacher to tell you what mods to put on your car, the Reverend Veilside180sx might have a suggestion.
Last edited by veilside180sx : 01-01-2007 at 10:50 PM.
