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Whisky Tango Foxtrot
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Went to an open track night at Gingerman Raceway in MI. $50 bucks for 3 hours of racing, you can't beat that. Well after 5 laps of a 2 mile track my brakes were toast. I couldn't even heal-toe anymore my brake pedal was going so far down.

Where are you guys getting the NX brakes from? And, How much are they? I guess that'll be my winter project.

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Sean
97 SE-R w/PR CAI,Unorthodox UP,AEBS Header, CN Exhaust, 91 I-cam, 138whp/128wtq, Coming attractions: Toda Racing cams
 

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<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Soupaflie:
Went to an open track night at Gingerman Raceway in MI. $50 bucks for 3 hours of racing, you can't beat that. Well after 5 laps of a 2 mile track my brakes were toast. I couldn't even heal-toe anymore my brake pedal was going so far down.

Where are you guys getting the NX brakes from? And, How much are they? I guess that'll be my winter project.

</font>
What pads and fluid were you using?

My stock SE-R brakes didn't fade at all this weekend on Summit Point's Jeff. Circuit. It's only 1.1 miles, but it's pretty hard on brakes since there aren't any really long straights to cool the brakes down. Ran three 20-minute sessions Saturday, bled brakes Sunday morning and ran three sessions again.

I use Porterfield R4 pads and Motul 600.

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'93 Sentra SE-R, daily driver and track/autox toy
'91 Sentra SE-R, future racecar
 

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<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by slowSER:
What pads and fluid were you using?
I use Porterfield R4 pads and Motul 600.

</font>
not quite stock there my friend


no wonder your brakes didnt fade... you were using racing pads with more exotic high-end fluid



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Shawn
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current car(s):
1989 Acura Integra LS
1997 200SX SE-R
1973 Super Beetle

Next car:
AE86 Corolla GT-S or
S14 Nissan 240SX (16V DOHC, not 12V SOHC)
 

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<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by shadowboy:
not quite stock there my friend


no wonder your brakes didnt fade... you were using racing pads with more exotic high-end fluid
</font>
So will OE Nissan pads and OE Nissan brake fluid with NX2000 calipers stop just as well?
 

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<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by brian:
save up and get the smc kit, it is alot more than the ad22, but you will look cool and stop even better.</font>
I've been saying this for years: you don't need to fork over the $$$ to upgrade your brake calipers (clarification thanks to shadowboy) unless you have some high-hp setup. With good pads and good fluid, you're set. I bet with **** pads and **** fluid, AD22VF brakes will still fade just as badly as stock SE-R brakes.

The only advantage the AD22VF brakes give you is that you can be lazy and go an entire weekend without having to worry about bleeding your brakes.

This was originally posted by MaddMatt:

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Disclaimer: The following info is true ONLY if you have a properly working well balanced braking system.
The only thing that affects the stopping distance of your car is: 1) weight of the car, and 2) friction between the road and the tires. You are probably saying I'm full of **** right now. But think for a minute, if you can lock your brakes up with the calipers and rotors and pads you have now, what will you gain from larger caliper/rotors? It's the tires that actually stop your car. They are what is in contact with the road. Buying better tires will shorten your stopping distance and pulling weight out of the car will shorten your distance, but nothing else will. Putting bigger brakes on should make the stopping experinece easier on your leg since you'll need less pedal pressure to stop the car, but the car will not stop in a shorter distance. You just think it does because you, the driver, are exerting less effort to stop.

So now you're saying "Well Matt, if it doesn't shorten you stopping distance, why are YOU changing to the AD22VF brakes?" I'm changing purely from a thermal management issue. The stock SE-R brakes are just not up to the task of stopping my car repeatedly all weekend without fade. On track, heat is your enemy. The AD22VF rotors have far more metal in them to absorb the heat. My pads and my rotors will last longer, and I'll hopefully save money in the long run because of it.

So, I still say, unless you are doing track schools/racing, you probably don't need the NX2K brakes and they won't stop you faster. I don't care what SCC said about the NX2000 brakes in the Octember issue. Weight, and tires are all the affect breaking distance. Pick up the latest issue of Grassroots Motorsports. It's all there.

Give me a few minutes to put on a Kevlar suit before you flame me.
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[This message has been edited by slowSER (edited 09-27-2001).]
 

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employment whiplash, NC
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You *can* get by with the stock SE-R brakes. Since you have a '97, you can get pads from Hawk. Get some of their Blue compound and remove your heat retainers, er..., I mean splash guards. Freshen up the fluid and you should be good to go on almost any track.

You can get the AD22VF brakes from Carparts.com. I got loaded Wagner calipers for a NX2000 with ABS (nevermind if you don't have ABS). Got some cheap rotors from Brake Parts Warehouse (www.brakeco.com, 1-888-428-7278). $30 each. Be sure you get the 257mmX26mm rotors. Stay away from x-drilled or slotted rotors.

I really can't see the need to go any larger than the AD22VF brakes. It is a significant upgrade to the stock brakes. I was up at Jefferson Circuit with SlowSER last weekend and I used $10 Advance Auto Wearever pads for everything but the time trial. The car stopped every time without a hint of fade.

You can also get Panther Plus brake pads from Carbotech. This is what I normally use. Hit the brakes and the car stops like a golf ball hitting a sand trap.


[edit] Wow, SlowSER quoted me. I'm honored. As a side note, after about 10 events with the NX2K brakes I am positive I can't stop any quicker on track. I can, however, beat the crap out of the brakes lap after lap before fade sets in like they did with the stock brakes.[/edit]
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Matt
92 SE-R from Heck

"What have you DONE to that thing..." - stranger at Rockingham dragway 5/18/01
"Where's the turbo?" - stranger at the 1st autocross of 2000 where my SE-R debuted
"That thing is a goddamn rocket ship. I'm not lifting for you on the straights anymore!" -Karl Shultz, Rockingham 4/27/01
"What in the hell have you done since I drove it last?" -David Stone, Rockingham 4/27/01

[This message has been edited by MaddMatt (edited 09-27-2001).]
 

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employment whiplash, NC
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<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">you don't need to fork over the $$$ to upgrade your
brake calipers</font>
After my last track event last year with the stock brakes, I burned up most of the rubber boots around the pistons and cracked all my rotors. The entire front brake system had to be replaced. I added up the cost of getting rebuilt stock calipers and rotors vs. loaded NX2K calipers and rotors (from the sources listed above) and it was actually CHEAPER for me to upgrade to the NX2K brakes. That made my decision very easy.

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Matt
92 SE-R from Heck

"What have you DONE to that thing..." - stranger at Rockingham dragway 5/18/01
"Where's the turbo?" - stranger at the 1st autocross of 2000 where my SE-R debuted
"That thing is a goddamn rocket ship. I'm not lifting for you on the straights anymore!" -Karl Shultz, Rockingham 4/27/01
"What in the hell have you done since I drove it last?" -David Stone, Rockingham 4/27/01
 

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Whisky Tango Foxtrot
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Discussion Starter #9
Thanks guys, Currently I am useing just some cheap pads that larry at Carbotech said would get me by until he made me a set. My fluid is still original. I think the fluid was the main problem. The pedal still this morning goes down a lot farther than yesterday. Time for a bleeding
I also think some SMC lines would help with the pedal feel. My pedal was going down so far I couldn't heel and toe properly.
 

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They're just cones!
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Hi Sean, I went through a whole set of PBR Metal Masters at Gingerman in about 20 laps. Man that track is hard on brakes! I had Motul 600 in at the time, and my pedal still went mostly to the floor after about 10 of those. I drove all the way home on the backing plates.
I have since purchased the AD22VFs, and the horrible feel of the (even new) stock brakes is now improved (contrary to what was supposed to happen). I bought them from Courtesy, just because I was too lazy to mess with Pep Boys. They are absolutely awesome! Next time I head there, I'm going to bring my street pads, a set of race pads (Thanks for the Carbotech recommendation MaddMatt) and a set of junk pads just in case. Hey, speaking of, do you want to go? I think I posted to the MI-SER list about the last one, but nobody was interested. A couple of guys rent the track for the WHOLE DAY, about 10-15 cars, really laid back, go out whenever you want. It was a blast having the cheapest car there, and getting waved by by almost everyone...



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-=Matt=- 97 SE-R 94,000smiles+, POP, custom 2.25" exhaust, ACT, Shifter, ST sways, AV22VFs (new!)
 

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One thing you must keep in mind when considering the factor of friction in braking is surface area. A higher SA will equate to a higher coefficient of friction. Therefore, you will stop faster. Different compounds, etc are the next step. A little bit of both is the best way to go.

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Kevin
93 Ruby Pearl Classic
w/ advanced timing & Stillen POP
 

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<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by slowSER:
So will OE Nissan pads and OE Nissan brake fluid with NX2000 calipers stop just as well?</font>
no, thats why your brakes arent exactly stock
stock brakes use organic caliper and ordinary DOT 3/4 fluid

altho i do not doubt that the motul 600 is DOT-compliant fluid

but the porterfield R4 pads are not designed for street use... thats what the R4S pads are for

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Shawn
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current car(s):
1989 Acura Integra LS
1997 200SX SE-R
1973 Super Beetle

Next car:
AE86 Corolla GT-S or
S14 Nissan 240SX (16V DOHC, not 12V SOHC)
 

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i agree with SlowSER here completely.. tires are the single biggest factor in stopping you

but brake pedal effort goes a long way into allowing you to control your braking (keeping you closer to the threshold more consistently).. thereby shortening your stopping distances
but its only an indirect effect...

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Shawn
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current car(s):
1989 Acura Integra LS
1997 200SX SE-R
1973 Super Beetle

Next car:
AE86 Corolla GT-S or
S14 Nissan 240SX (16V DOHC, not 12V SOHC)
 

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<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by kpw97:
One thing you must keep in mind when considering the factor of friction in braking is surface area. A higher SA will equate to a higher coefficient of friction. Therefore, you will stop faster. Different compounds, etc are the next step. A little bit of both is the best way to go.

</font>
the surface or swept area has very very little to do with the coefficient of friction, that is affected by the textures of the surfaces in contact

the advantage from bigger contact area with the rotor comes in the form of a larger surface area for heat dissipation (larger surface area for heat dissipation is why heat sinks have so many fins)

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Shawn
-----
current car(s):
1989 Acura Integra LS
1997 200SX SE-R
1973 Super Beetle

Next car:
AE86 Corolla GT-S or
S14 Nissan 240SX (16V DOHC, not 12V SOHC)
 

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SlowSer and Matt, IMO , are center mass on target. Get better pads, stainless steel brake lines and a top-quality brake fluid.

I'm partial to Porterfield R4-S brake pads for high-performance street use and R4's for the track. Incidentally, I use OEM Nissan pads for the rears for street use. Then get some SMC Stainless steel brake lines. I use Motul 600 brake fluid and sometimes Ford Heavy Duty Brake Fluid in the blue cans. What ever pads you choose bed them properly. Bleed your brakes frequently. A product called Speed Bleeders http://www.speedbleeder.com/ makes bleeding your brakes incredibly easy. Do all this and you will stop yesterday. A max performance (sticky) tire will also significantly reduce braking distance. As will overall weight and how that weight is distributed.

There have already been other high-quality brake pads and fluids mentioned in this thread. Pick your poison. These are my favorites after much trial and error. I'm sure there are others that are as good if not better.

As far as rotors go I use Brembo blanks in OEM size. No slotting and God knows no drilling. Powerslot rotors are nothing more than slotted Brembo blanks so they would be o.k. But once again, IMO, there is no need for them but they can't, as far as I have experienced, hurt either..

If you want to stop the rotation of the earth, SMC's BABK is the only way to go for our cars. High-quality, strong Wildwood calipers with larger rotors and the Altima master cylinder = stopping power! Yet this feat is accomplished with less unsprung weight than the OEM set-up! You get much more unsprung weight with the NX2000/AD22VF calipers and rotors. Way more than stock! And as we well know weight is bad, unsprung weight is the worst.

Remember, with any high performance pad you are going to get some noise (squealing) that is to be expected. They are race parts not grandma's Caddy's brakes. This is especially true with real racing systems like SMC's BABK. So be careful what you ask for, you just might get it.

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93 SE-R JWT S3 Cams, JWT ECU, JWT Pop-Charger, HS Header,RT Cat, HKS exhaust, Hypercoils, KYB-AGX, ST Sways, N-Tech Brace, Stillen STB, SMC SS.
 

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<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Andrew:

If you want to stop the rotation of the earth, SMC's BABK is the only way to go for our cars. High-quality, strong Wildwood calipers with larger rotors and the Altima master cylinder = stopping power! Yet this feat is accomplished with less unsprung weight than the OEM set-up! You get much more unsprung weight with the NX2000/AD22VF calipers and rotors. Way more than stock! And as we well know weight is bad, unsprung weight is the worst.
</font>
Oh yeah, I forgot the SMC BABK was lighter than stock SE-R or NX2000 brakes. I think brake pads are cheaper, too, since the pads are more of a "universal" size.

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'93 Sentra SE-R, daily driver and track/autox toy
'91 Sentra SE-R, future racecar
 

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They're just cones!
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Actually, the swept area of the pad is very important. The larger the pad, the less clamping force it has to exert on the rotor. Drag the eraser tip of a pencil on paper vs. a big fat eraser block to prove it. Also, that small eraser tip will wear out much more quickly than the block.

The big problem we're having is the brakes overheating. The energy of all that momentum we get on the track has to be turned into something, and just as much heat will be produced regardless of the brakes used. Our front brakes heat up so much that the coefficent of friction in the pads takes a nosedive. They literally melt away. This is pad fade. Bleeding the brakes did not help, so the Motul 600 did not boil.

When the pads wear down so much, there is a lot of brake fluid in the caliper piston. This and the really glazed up pads is why the pedal feels so bad. Just putting new pads on will makes the brakes feel like new again, but that's tough in the middle of a lap!

The solution is to either have pads that operate at higher temperatures, a braking system that has more heat absorbing potential, or better cooling for the brake components.

The AD22VF brakes have rotors almost twice as thick as the stockers, so they can absorb more heat (we're not braking forever!) You have to remove the heat shield, oops, I mean backing plate to install them, now all I need is nice high temperature pads and I should be all set.

The SMC BABK is a great piece, for sure, but it's biggest asset is it's abudance of surface area for heat to dissapate. Also, those big-ole-baby rotors give a lot of leverage against the wheel rotation so a lot less brake line pressure is needed.

What a bunch of babbling, huh?



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-=Matt=- 97 SE-R 94,000smiles+, POP, custom 2.25" exhaust, ACT, Shifter, ST sways, AV22VFs (new!)
 
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