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Living up Boost
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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I was wondering if anyone has had first hand experience with turbo kits like hotshot or f-max. I would appreciate it if people express their opinions about these 2 kits. Also, I have been learning a lot these past 4 months about the procedure of a turbo install. However, I still can't figure out where the oil and coolant FEED lines are in the engine compartment. I have looked at some pictures, but I have trouble matching what I see to the diagrams in my FSM for my 99 sentra. I would appreciate it if anyone can let me know if there are pictures that show the locations of these feed lines in detail. Thanx in advance,

-saaby
 

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<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Saaby:
I was wondering if anyone has had first hand experience with turbo kits like hotshot or f-max. I would appreciate it if people express their opinions about these 2 kits. Also, I have been learning a lot these past 4 months about the procedure of a turbo install. However, I still can't figure out where the oil and coolant FEED lines are in the engine compartment. I have looked at some pictures, but I have trouble matching what I see to the diagrams in my FSM for my 99 sentra. I would appreciate it if anyone can let me know if there are pictures that show the locations of these feed lines in detail. Thanx in advance,

-saaby
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1. You have to tell us what your goals are. What do you want out of the turbo system, and what do you want out of the car.

2. If you can't find the feed lines, I would not suggest you try and install this kit yourself. No offense, but that's a point that may save you lots of time and money in the long run.

Jay Hassinger
97 SE-R Turbo
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<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Jay Hass:


2. If you can't find the feed lines, I would not suggest you try and install this kit yourself. No offense, but that's a point that may save you lots of time and money in the long run.

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I am not intending to come off as a jerk here, so, if I am, I apologize.

Wow...what if the guy is trying to learn more about turbos and turbo installs? Just because he does not know something now doesn't mean he doesn't have the capacity to learn it. If he spends a good year or so learning about turbos don't you think he will be able to install one in his car? From reading your posts I can tell you know a lot about turbos Jay and you are one of the reasons this forum is so helpful for people. I think if someone wants to learn more about modding their car, we should help them by supplying them info they can't find. We shouldn't tell them to pay to have it done because they don't know enough. In the long run, assuming he would prepare in the correct way for the install, don't you think he would benefit for having done the turbo install himself?

Maybe I am overreacting, but if I asked a question and got a response such as number 2 in your reply, I would have been a bit disappointed.



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I don't think Jay was overly harsh. He spent BIG $$$$ and tons of time on his install, and he had plenty of experience tuning and building engines already. He simply said that Saaby will save a lot of time and money since he is starting from basically no experience. Now, if Saaby has enough money and patience to blow an engine or turbo up and do it all over again, more power to him
But if he's looking at bang for the buck, I would say have someone do it right so you don't have to worry.
 

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Point taken...I just don't want to see any SR20DE owners get turned away here. There is too little traffic so as it is.


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'93 Charcoal NX2k
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Whisky Tango Foxtrot
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<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Saaby:
I was wondering if anyone has had first hand experience with turbo kits like hotshot or f-max. I would appreciate it if people express their opinions about these 2 kits. Also, I have been learning a lot these past 4 months about the procedure of a turbo install. However, I still can't figure out where the oil and coolant FEED lines are in the engine compartment. I have looked at some pictures, but I have trouble matching what I see to the diagrams in my FSM for my 99 sentra. I would appreciate it if anyone can let me know if there are pictures that show the locations of these feed lines in detail. Thanx in advance,
</font>
Try doc lews site. http://www.brazosport.cc.tx.us/~lshadoff/turbo/



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Sean
97 SE-R w/misc. goodies
 

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<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by nx2kPA:
Point taken...I just don't want to see any SR20DE owners get turned away here. There is too little traffic so as it is.


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Point taken, I didn't mean to come off like that. It was a sincere statement, and not intended to ruffle feathers.

I've seen to many people who had the money and time to do a nice set up end up with broken parts, and a car that runs like crap and end up selling it. Instead they could have said "okay, this is over my head, X is doing the install" and it comes out nice and they learn and enjoy the car.

If he is going to learn and do the research, by all means, more power to him! The one hard part though, is that you can't research experience. However time, and extra parts can overcome that barrier.
 

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That's cool Jay, I see where you're coming from.

When I eventually go turbo (everyone does eventually, don't they?
) I always figured I'd do it myself due to the fact that I don't know of any shops that I could trust to do such a job. If I could find a reputable place that has experience with sr20de turbo installs, maybe I would go that route. I think my fear of getting hosed by a shop out weighs my fear of not knowing how to do it myself.



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'93 Charcoal NX2k
advanced timing
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16 inch rims
Yoko A520s
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Living up Boost
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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
let me first start off by saying, that I didn't take what Jay said the wrong way. In fact I respect it. I forgot to mention that I plan on doing the install myself WITH the aid of an experienced individual. However, I am NOT ready to take this challenging leap anytime soon since I have a lot to learn...The concept of turboing my car has sparked an intense interest in me. That is why I have been doing a lot of reading about this subject. And as they say, if you are interested, you are more likely to grasp the subject. So from what I have read...the hotshot kit gives me approximately 195 wheel horse power and it is pretty easy on my stock engine running at 7 psi, since I plan on keeping the stock internals (pistons, etc.). The hotshot kit is also complete (not sure about f-max). The only questionable thing is the ecu which I will have to use a modified one from a 97 I believe. Also I am a very conservative individual...so I will be happy with power in that range (200 wheel hp). My priority however, is safety. I am not gonna go to obscene amounts of boost...for a while anyway. Oh and I hope that just because I can't find the FEED lines now, doesnt mean that i NEVER will with the help of experienced folks on this forum
The reason that I ask is because I have heard some people say that it is in the back of the engine, but looking in my FSM shows that the oil pump is on the passenger side right below the oil filter. So I know I am missing something here. Thank you in advance,

-saaby

[This message has been edited by Saaby (edited 02-12-2001).]
 

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LOL Thanks Saaby!


200whp? Trust me, with the SR20DE it's never enough! LOL

Okay, with that info I can help you out better.

The Hotshot and F-Max stage I kits are pretty much that same in regards to power output.

Both will use the stock MAF, fuel pump, JWT ECU and 370cc injectors. The F-Max however does use the big ass intercooler with their stage I and II along with a more efficient T3/T4 turbo vs the straigh T3 of the Hotshot.

For under 10ish psi you will probably not notice a difference between them. After that the 370's, fuel pump, and MAF max out.

With the stage II F-Max you will get the JWT fuel rail, 50lb (535ish cc) injectors, 300zx TT Fuel pump and Cobra MAF. That system will support a TON more power. Add the water injection and it'll be happy to about 16-18psi on pump gas depending on ambient tempature.

Regarding "safe" I can tell you this without blinking. As long as you don't do something stupid (Like try and run 17psi flat out in 5th on a 95* day) you will NOT blow the stock SR20 with anything less than 22psi of boost.

I run 22psi on a stock longblock aside from JWT cams with alarming regularity and 18psi on pump fuel with alarming regularity.

Ryan Besterwhich's (sp?) car was the test bed for the F-Max kit and was run rich, run lean, detonated, flogged to DEATH, run flat out at 18.5psi on pump fuel in the desert, beat on by magazines etc etc. It now has over 100,000 miles on it, and the kit went on at 60,000 with nitrous on the car before that!

Both of us are in the 450hp range.


SR20 = Bulletproof. Seriously.

It comes down to this. Think of your ultimate plans. If you never plan on making more than 230whp either kit will do really but I believe the F-Max stage I is a touch less expensive. If you even think you will want more power don't screw around and buy a kit that you end up selling half the parts out of. Do it all right from the start. The Hotshot is NOT the kit to try and make big power with as you are stuck with a small intercooler, and T3 turbo that you will have to upgrage along with all the fuel components.

In regards to the "feeds". I only have an oil cooled turbo with BB center section. It's happy as a clam. The feed comes off of the oil pressure sender just below the oil filter on the rear. Not *that* bad to get to from underneath the car, but certainly not the easiest.

Hope that helps.

[This message has been edited by Jay Hass (edited 02-12-2001).]
 

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Let's see, got some suggestions as well as questions myself since Jay is posting here.


I learned all my stuff from a few hours of reading the SE-R list archives, Lew's page listed above, and the DSM list archives. Hotshot's and FMAX's website pics helped a lot too. http://www.hotshot.com and http://www.f-max.com . Also look at Mike Jez's extensive photo library of a BB DET. http://www.geocities.com/DETized/detpics.htm . Try all that and ask questions on here.

Now for my questions on Jay's comments. So where is this line between safe and stupid? You helped a guy run his stock DET with the wastegate line undone at the track and his motor lived. Since the JWT ECU compensates so much in the way of timing advance, how much PSI can I run on my setup and know that it's safe? I have an OBD2 datalogger where I can view timing advance in real time, but I don't know how to interpret it. Can I simply use that as a tool to adjust my boost? If I go out testing and disconnect the wastegate to do a data run with the datalogger is that dumb? Will that be worth anything?

How about base timing? I've been told I can advance it beyond a "safe" 14-15 degrees BTDC at 7psi and probably be ok. How do I know? I can probably use this datalogger for this purpose as well. How do I intepret real-time timing advance?

How much will a nice big front mount IC improve things for my over my tiny front mounted DET stocker? Will it show up on the dyno? Maybe it will show up on the datalogger as less timing retard? Hey, just came up with an analogy. Say you have a crappy CPU fan and the temp on your normally clocked CPU is high and you can't overclock it and have the system run. So you get a 7000RPM cooling unit and the temp drops significantly. You then are able to overclock the processor. Is that a good analogy for a better intercooler?

TIA

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Ben98SentraSE
98 Sentra SE TURBO
 

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Living up Boost
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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
Ben,

Good analogy!

-saaby
software engineer / gear head wanna be
 

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I talked with Jon a few months back at his shop and he stated he doesn't make the turbo kits anymore cause they cost so much to make and they dont have much of a net return. Not sure whats up, have you even called them? Or just been to the web site. Also in their web site is a picture of the oil sending line in question, It should be real easy to spot after looking at that page. also its a circular thing underneath the oil filter with a electrical plug going into it


Mike Collins
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<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Ben98SentraSE:
Let's see, got some suggestions as well as questions myself since Jay is posting here.
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Thanks for the kind words but I'm certainly not Rob Cadle or Mike Kojima. I'll try and help the best I can though...

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Now for my questions on Jay's comments. So where is this line between safe and stupid?</font>
About 5 psi LOL

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">You helped a guy run his stock DET with the wastegate line undone at the track and his motor lived.</font>
Yea, well I couldn't talk him out of it, so I figured I'd help it live the ordeal. He was dead set on running that boost.

He had a BB DET, small ass exhaust, and pretty much everything else stock. Car ran 12.8's at I think 109mph.

What I did was make sure he used the best race gas they had at the track, turned his base timing back to about 13*, and regapped his plugs to .020 and said a prayer.

Heck, I was just walking by with my friends and wife and didn't plan on wrenching! LOL

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Since the JWT ECU compensates so much in the way of timing advance, how much PSI can I run on my setup and know that it's safe? I have an OBD2 datalogger where I can view timing advance in real time, but I don't know how to interpret it. Can I simply use that as a tool to adjust my boost? If I go out testing and disconnect the wastegate to do a data run with the datalogger is that dumb? Will that be worth anything?</font>
Ben the bottom line is detonation.

Detonation will kill the motor. If you hear it, then you can't do whatever it is your trying to do.

It's hard to say how much boost you can run before you run out of injector/MAF...in other words fuel.

The car mentioned above may have made 220whp at 17psi while yours it making 250whp at 17psi and running out of fuel. You have a different set up than he did, so it's not the same.

The fuel system can only support X amount of hp regardless of boost pressure.

You can either listen for detontation, or get to a dyno and see how much power you are pushing at X boost. IMHO I would not push the stock MAF/370's past 230whp. And even then have a little 110/116 in the tank. It's worth the $10 in race gas to make the motor live.

As far as base timing, if you are going straight up 116 race gas, and you have water, so far we have been able to turn the base timing up to 20* to compensate for the conservative 9.5:1 pump gas turbo program.

You can probably run yours at 17* and see how it feels. This depends on weather a lot too. Remember, listen for detonation and read your plugs for it. (If you don't know how to read a plug read Mike Kojima's article in SCC about it)

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">How much will a nice big front mount IC improve things for my over my tiny front mounted DET stocker?</font>
Probably not much with less than 10lbs of boost as you are not heating the air that much.

If you start turning it up to 15psi and beyond it will help a lot.

Hope that helps...
 

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Aight, so lemme see if I can put this in my own words/thoughs:

I only got so much in my fuel system. If I start leaning out because of it at higher boost levels, what will happen is detontation, correct?

If I have the correct A/F ratio, meaning my fuel system is enough, can I still detonate?

Trying to figger out which method I should undertake to find out my max safe boost.

Idea#1 is to hook my mutlimeter to the MAF and drive around with gradually increasing boost levels. When my MAF finally reads 5.1V that is my max boost.

Idea#2 is to go dyno and gradually increase boost until I see detonation. The one before detonation will be max boost.

The only thing I see possibly wrong in either of these analyses is that I'm ignoring detonation in one and MAF voltage in the other. I guess I could easily hook the mutlimeter to the MAF and have someone watch it whilst I dyno. You said you can increase timing to compensate for the extreme rich nature of the 9.5:1 comp program. I suppose that's another variable to consider along with the amount of boost and when I see detonation and race gas vs. pump gas etc... *sigh* ...

So let's try this again:

Safest method would be to be on the dyno with boost controller. I will be running 93 octane at first, maybe another trip with 116 octane. Each time I will hook a multimeter to my MAF and have someone watch it. The shop I plan to go to has a A/F ratio meter they clamp to the exhaust tip to watch that so we got that covered. Now what I'm curious about is how to play with the boost and the timing. Say I keep timing at 14-15 degrees and I find my max boost is 10psi. Ok, now I try and increase timing to 16, 17, 18 and eventually find when I start detonating. Ok, is that it then? Should I maybe try turning down the boost 1psi and continue to play with base timing to see if I can extract more power that way?

Since the JWT 9.5:1 comp program is so rich, can I go a little past 5.1V on the MAF and just make sure we watch the A/F ratio meter and make sure it's correct?

When I was at Salt Fest working on my car I accidentally disconnected my wastegate line from my intake and didn't notice until I broke loose big time in 3rd and Ben Moses behind me saw some black smoke coming from my exhaust. For the time we were driving around there I tested once or twice letting it go to 9-10psi for an instant and having Ben Moses watch the exhaust again. Again, black smoke. My first inclination was "Wow, JWT does have this thing running rich at high boost. That means that my fuel system can do more than 10psi." Does that sound like a decent assumption? Or is there something I'm not considering?

[This message has been edited by Ben98SentraSE (edited 02-18-2001).]
 

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I would drive it with the MAF on the multi meter. A dyno isn't going to replicate the true nature of driving on the street. On the other hand you have to have a Dyno to get the correct numbers. So, you're best bet would be to get an idea of maxing the MAF out on boost on the street and then go to the dyno to figure you're timing.
My DET pulled 218hp and 219 lbs-ft on the dyno at 10 psi


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Ben the timing advance is not so much for running rich as it is because JWT pulls a lot of timing out of the total curve. It's a dirty way to add more total advance to the curve.

How about you listen for/read your plugs for detonation *while* watching the MAF?


I'm not going to try and guess safe boost levels. It's different to every car depending on turbo, IC, compression, carbon build up, tune etc etc...

At 10psi a light crackle of detonation should not hurt provided you get out of it really fast. Remember, how you set it up in 40* weather will not be the same on a 90* summer day.
 
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