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Which is better for BIG horsepower?

  • BBDET

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  • GTiRDET

    Votes: 20 90.9%
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Drive it like ya stole it
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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Anyone had the opertunitiy to tune a GTiR DET? I've read that the 4 throttle bodies are hard to tune. What is the advantage to having 4 throttle bodies? What other things are diffrent in the GTiR DET from the BB DET and the SR20DE? Any advice, or thoughts would help guys. TIA!
 

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I have heard they are really hard to tune but haven't played with mine yet, as far as differences I think it is the turbo, the oil squirters, intake, and I think a larger intercooler on top but there is probally alot more than what I named this is just a few thing I know of.
 

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Scary monkey windmill
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As far as the poll, which engine is better for big HP... the US-spec DE is probably the best, believe it or not, because of cost. If cost is not an issue *at all*, then the GTiR motor is better.

For the extra money it costs to buy a GTiR motor over a spare DE, you could build the DE up with forged pistons and rods and put piston coolers in and probably some other goodies. At that point, you're in a position to spend far less money on finishing it up than you would be if you're doing a GTiR, because even with a GTiR motor you'll have to do forged pistons and rods, and headwork if you really want to do it right.

I'd say the GTiR motor is the best and most cost effective way to go fast *IF* you leave it stock or close to it. Once you start replacing internal parts, it would have been on average $1500 cheaper to just do that to a regular DE, and that cost difference alone would pay for the upgraded parts.
 

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BOOSTIN PROTECH STYLE
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I would have to agree with Zak 100% the Gtir is definately a solid building platform, but you the bang for the buck relies on the USDM sr20 IMHO :p

Zak91SER said:
As far as the poll, which engine is better for big HP... the US-spec DE is probably the best, believe it or not, because of cost. If cost is not an issue *at all*, then the GTiR motor is better.

For the extra money it costs to buy a GTiR motor over a spare DE, you could build the DE up with forged pistons and rods and put piston coolers in and probably some other goodies. At that point, you're in a position to spend far less money on finishing it up than you would be if you're doing a GTiR, because even with a GTiR motor you'll have to do forged pistons and rods, and headwork if you really want to do it right.

I'd say the GTiR motor is the best and most cost effective way to go fast *IF* you leave it stock or close to it. Once you start replacing internal parts, it would have been on average $1500 cheaper to just do that to a regular DE, and that cost difference alone would pay for the upgraded parts.
 

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Drive it like ya stole it
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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
So what parts would you need other than what comes with a GTiR? I'm kinda new to turbo...so I don't know much...
What internal parts would you have to replace, what internal parts are diffrent, and at what boost? In other words...how much boost can you run SAFELY and a daily driver(GTiR or USDE??)? Whats the advantage of having 4 individual throttle bodies? I assume you're more cramped for space too...where do the injectors go on the GTiR? Anyone have a picture of a GTiR engine? I'd like to see one.
 

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The quad throttle body setup is a bit finicky to adjust....if it needs to be adjusted. There are 4 separate screws to adjust the idle speed of each runner. You have to get a special balancer that attaches to 4 vacuum ports on the runners. This is what motorcycle mechanics use to synch their carbs.

It is a pain in the ass and the car still idles a little high...like 1000 RPM usually. As long as you do not touch the adjustments when you buy the motor, you should not have a problem, though.

As for differences, the GTi-R has:

1. larger rods than the Bluebird and DE
2. larger oil cooler than Bluebird
3. larger flywheel bolts than BB and DE
4. larger oil pump than BB and DE
5. different water pump
6. different power steering pump
7. T28 turbo
8. MAF can read more airflow
9. short runners
10. individual throttle bodies
11. mechanical lifters..allowing for high RPM operation
12. rocker arm retainers...keep the rocker arms from flying off
13. bigger cams
14. dual valve springs

The short runners and individual throttle bodies give you better throttle response, less lag, and more power.

As for the mechanical valvetrain, this will allow you to rev higher without floating valves or breaking rocker arms.

IMO, the USDM SR20DE or JDM Bluebird SR20DET are the easier, hassle free way to go. If I could do it all over again, I would have just turboed my DE.
 

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Drive it like ya stole it
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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
v8killer2001 said:
The quad throttle body setup is a bit finicky to adjust....if it needs to be adjusted. There are 4 separate screws to adjust the idle speed of each runner. You have to get a special balancer that attaches to 4 vacuum ports on the runners. This is what motorcycle mechanics use to synch their carbs.

It is a pain in the ass and the car still idles a little high...like 1000 RPM usually. As long as you do not touch the adjustments when you buy the motor, you should not have a problem, though.

As for differences, the GTi-R has:

1. larger rods than the Bluebird and DE
2. larger oil cooler than Bluebird
3. larger flywheel bolts than BB and DE
4. larger oil pump than BB and DE
5. different water pump
6. different power steering pump
7. T28 turbo
8. MAF can read more airflow
9. short runners
10. individual throttle bodies
11. mechanical lifters..allowing for high RPM operation
12. rocker arm retainers...keep the rocker arms from flying off
13. bigger cams
14. dual valve springs

The short runners and individual throttle bodies give you better throttle response, less lag, and more power.

As for the mechanical valvetrain, this will allow you to rev higher without floating valves or breaking rocker arms.

IMO, the USDM SR20DE or JDM Bluebird SR20DET are the easier, hassle free way to go. If I could do it all over again, I would have just turboed my DE.
So can you put a USDE waterpump on the GTIR motor? I've been reading up on some stuff...and apparently the GTiR hits its peak HP at like 4400 RPM, you had any expierence with this? And if you're talking about doing a DE over GTiR, is that because the GTiR cost more? What if you could get one for $1000? Would you still do it over? Can JWT make the rev-limiter higher on the GTiR's ecu? What is the rev-limit stock with the GTiR? I'm really phyched.
What about the larger flywheel bolts, does that mean that you can't use a USDE aftermarket clutch on it? Or is that just larger flywheel bolts to the crankshaft?
 

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i agree with mike and zak 100% too. if you have a budget stay with the sr20 and build it. if money is no object get the gti-r and do it up. i do own a gti-r motor, and i just recieved my jun 280 cams, valve springs, retainers, valve guides, and flywheel. i just sent my ross pistons and cunningham rods with the crank and flywheel out to be balanced this week. by the time the head gets ported out and get everything back form the machine shop the head gsaket should be in and everything should go together smoothly. as far as power goes, before i pulled the motor apart, and with a turbo upgrade i made 424whp and 412lb/tq to the wheels on 92oct gas. hopefully the new parts should turn out some bigger numbers. there is a link to my motor when i first got everything together. and the dyno numbers with the t28 that came origonally with the motor

jimmy
1996 200sx gti-r motor
http://www.eiptuning.com/projects/200sxser1stpage.html
 

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Drive it like ya stole it
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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
jbanach77 said:
i agree with mike and zak 100% too. if you have a budget stay with the sr20 and build it. if money is no object get the gti-r and do it up. i do own a gti-r motor, and i just recieved my jun 280 cams, valve springs, retainers, valve guides, and flywheel. i just sent my ross pistons and cunningham rods with the crank and flywheel out to be balanced this week. by the time the head gets ported out and get everything back form the machine shop the head gsaket should be in and everything should go together smoothly. as far as power goes, before i pulled the motor apart, and with a turbo upgrade i made 424whp and 412lb/tq to the wheels on 92oct gas. hopefully the new parts should turn out some bigger numbers. there is a link to my motor when i first got everything together. and the dyno numbers with the t28 that came origonally with the motor

jimmy
1996 200sx gti-r motor
http://www.eiptuning.com/projects/200sxser1stpage.html
Is the GTiR engine able to use the same clutch as the USDE? Can you put a USDE water pump on the GTi-R engine? What mods do/did you have on your car Jimmy(when you did that dyno)? What boost were you runnin on the first dyno, and what boost were you running ont he 424whp run? Have you had your tranny cryo-treated? Do you know what the stock compression on the GTi-R is? Whats the most boost you can run it at safley on stock internals? You know
 

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So can you put a USDE waterpump on the GTIR motor?

***No. The GTi-R water pump is different.

I've been reading up on some stuff...and apparently the GTiR hits its peak HP at like 4400 RPM, you had any expierence with this?

***Is that peak torque or peak hp? Peak hp should come in around 6400-6500 with the stock T28.

And if you're talking about doing a DE over GTiR, is that because the GTiR cost more?

***No. Parts availability.

What if you could get one for $1000?

***Then I would get it.

Would you still do it over?

***No.

Can JWT make the rev-limiter higher on the GTiR's ecu?

***Yes, they can raise it to a max of 7950 RPM.

What is the rev-limit stock with the GTiR?

***7500 RPM.

What about the larger flywheel bolts, does that mean that you can't use a USDE aftermarket clutch on it?

***No, it just means that you have to bore out the holes in your USDM flywheel.

Or is that just larger flywheel bolts to the crankshaft?

***The GTi-R uses larger bolts to attach the flywheel to the crankshaft.
 

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Is the GTiR engine able to use the same clutch as the USDE?

***Yes.

Can you put a USDE water pump on the GTi-R engine?

***No.

Do you know what the stock compression on the GTi-R is?

***8.3:1
 

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Drive it like ya stole it
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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
Thanks for all your answers Jay,
What is diffrent about the USDE water pump? Do you know what the most boost you can run on stock parts? What other things are diffrent other than the beefier head-bolts, water pump, oil pump, 4-individual intakes, solid lifters, bigger turbo-flange, oil coolers, ect...? I'm just trying to get the low-down here...
 

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Hey Ryan what's up? How's the bb runnin? The dyno numbers last sunday were pretty nice. Is still runnin hot sometimes?..............james
 

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Drive it like ya stole it
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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
james vick said:
Hey Ryan what's up? How's the bb runnin? The dyno numbers last sunday were pretty nice. Is still runnin hot sometimes?..............james
Hey James,
Its Shane that has the BB...I still got good 'ol stock USDM SR20DE...wanna upgrade though!! I don't know if its still running hot...was it running hot at the dyno? Sorry I couldn't make it...I was installing a tranny in that Volvo on sunday..ALL DAY... :~) I should be getting that NX2000 this weekend....Going to tow her back with a Volvo Wagon!!! Haha....it won't like it very much...but, yeah well...have you had any expierence with the GTi-R DET? L:eek:okin for some info....talk to you later man...might give you a call sometime...later!!

~~~Ryan
 

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What's up? Sorry got you guys mixed up that happens when your as old as me. Call me at the shop some time the gti-r is not that hard to tune. Orderd one yesterday to go in a 91 I'v sittin down at the shop but the usdm is better IMHO.......james
 

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Drive it like ya stole it
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Discussion Starter · #16 · (Edited)
james vick said:
What's up? Sorry got you guys mixed up that happens when your as old as me. Call me at the shop some time the gti-r is not that hard to tune. Orderd one yesterday to go in a 91 I'v sittin down at the shop but the usdm is better IMHO.......james
Hey man, its cool...That was a fun ride in your 94 Blue Classic...first one I've seen...LOVE the color...did you ever get the ignition problem fixed? Wha'd your car dyno at? TTYL, I'll definatly give you a call...later...BTW what is better about the USDM SR20DE? The parts availability? Can't you just get stuff re-bulit like oil pumps and water pumps? Do you know what elce is diffrent about the GTi-R? Anyway...I'll give you a call....thanks..
 

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No didn't dyno Ben and I had to leave to get to dallas. The damn thing still has a miss at around 7k and I'v changed every thing on the ignition but the dist. It's starting to get on my nerves I think it might be a fuel injector problem. Got lots of parts gonna change all the injectors and the fuel rail tomorow to see what happens....................be safe........james
 

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for all the questions that you asked me that jay answered, he gave you all the juice. when i did that dyno i had the tech 2, 550cc inj's, fuel pump, 3 in dp, fmic, and a boost controller. with the t-28 i did the 320 pull with @22psi. with the bigger turbo i made the 424whp @18psi. no i have not had my tranny cryoed, and i have killed one already cause of a bad throw out bearing. the stock internals in the bottom end can withstand quite a bit, it is the head that you have to worry about imo.

jimmy
1996 200sx gti-r motor
http://www.eiptuning.com/projects/200sxser1stpage.html
 

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BOOST OR GO HOME!!!!!
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JBANACH77 how long have you been dealing with eip tuning? did they did the swap for you? i went to there website and i liked what i seen so far. are you the only nissan they worked on? i like what they did with the volkswagon stages 1,2,3,4,5,6, do they have any stages for our cars? i have a nx2k but i am going to get a bbdet hopefully a avenir. thanks for you imput.

eip looks like a very reputable shop. a lot of my vw friends go there. if they do anything for nissan i would like to give them some work.
 

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GTIRoids
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eip looks like a very reputable shop. a lot of my vw friends go there. if they do anything for nissan i would like to give them some work. [/B][/QUOTE]

Stay as far away from them as you can, unless you know someone trust worthy & personally who works there! Them suckers did some bad work on my car when I had my UR pulleys installed and dynoed. They left a bolt out and my belts squelled like crazy. Then they wouldn't even spend time to try and fix my problem. Had to take it to the stealr :mad:
 
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