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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
There is a sentiment on this board and elsewhere, among Nissan owners, that the Nissan crowd is generally more into performance than the Honda crowd. There are more poseurs, or 'ricers' in the Honda world.

I agree with this contention, but would you also agree that, conversely, the Nissan crowd lags behind Honda drivers in the advancement of technology as far as racing is concerned? I am considering USA import drag racing only here, not because I'm a ricer that only knows how to go straight, but this form of racing allows for the greatest strides to be made in engine development within the framework of the rules. Tell me why Nissan's arent going faster than they are? Are all Nissan enthusiasts autocrossers?

Remember, this is a discussion, not a flame war. I haven't seen much flaming going on on these boards, hopefully the same will hold true in this topic.
 

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Our croud is generly more into autoX and road racing that drag, but.... Do you not think that 9.89 is fast? that is the record for a Nissan and that will be broke soon enough. We just dont have the suport that the Honda boys do. And we have our share of rice just like every one else and I think Honda gets a bad rap sometimes. there are just so many more Hondas out there that there is bound to be more rice. and if the car is slow and cant be made all that fast without a motor swap why not go for "looks". :) that last bit was just a joke but you get the hint. right?
 

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sleeper
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Well, I would say this.... how much money has been put into a Nissan drag car compared to Hondas? I do highly prefer road racing and auto-x to drag racing. Get yourself onto a road course and you'll understand why! That's all I gotta say about that. But anywayz... back to the topic of money spent. Jamie Farrer is one of the fastest Nissan's right now and he doesn't have a single really big sponsor. Ben. B just got Venom I believe as a sponsor. And then there's the AEBS sentra but that's not exactly a sponsored car either. It costs money to go fast and no one has invested the same amount of money into a Nissan as they have Hondas.

Plus, you have 100x more Hondas out there compared to Nissans, so essentially you have 100x more research and development going into Hondas compared to Nissans. That's a HUGE advantage right there in man power.

But.... Nissan still has one of the fastest drag cars.... The Jun hyper lemon Silvia with a worked sr20det in it ran 7's(pretty sure) a couple years ago. I don't think any type of Honda has gone that fast yet. I think the only other import to go that fast has been a rotary.

Also look at BTCC(British touring cars) series where the Nissan primera won the title a couple of times recently. Nissan doesn't participate in that anymore though. 300hp NA for a SR motor isn't bad huh? Honda Type R's have been kickin ass in the Speedvision worldcup (I think it's called that) which I give props to them for. But, uh, yeah, just more money has to be spent developing Nissans to catch up to Honda :)

Khiem
 

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Zed's dead baby
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Its all about support. Find how many se-r's were produced and find how many civics and integras were produced. Now if you are head of an aftermarket parts manufacturing company, are you going to spend a lot of time developing parts for the se-r or for a civic. Im not just talking about professional racers, but also just the averages Joes like us. For instance, how many companies offer cat-back exhuasts for the se-r? Three, four? Now how many for the Honda boys? It seems that every company that manufactures exhuast makes one for the Hondas. Its all a business, and if there is only a small market, your not going to waste your time with it.
 

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Seeing red
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SE-Rs are not hurting for parts
You can get anything you need to go fast in any setting for a SR20 car. If you have a SR20DE in your car, mount the coil-overs, R-tires, and turbo and go play. Track lapping, autocross, drag, club racing, rally - there are people doing all of these things on the SE-R list, and there's nothing keeping them from being totally slick at what they do.

Parts are parts, so if something is cheaper on the Honda side, more than likely it is lower quality. More choices in body kits, coil-overs with one-size-fits-all spring rates, and colored spark plug wires doesn't make SE-Rs any slower. Unless you have a late-model roller-cam SR20, you can get in on the ground level with relatively inexpensive bolt-ons and go all the way up to nutty turbo setups.

This was not the case four years ago. Now, it's difficult for anyone in the SE-R community to moan about simple "go-fast" being "unattainable" or "too expensive to get custom."

"Advanced"
When you get into the upper echelons of drag racing, the barebones, tube-frame cars being built share little with the street cars. Looking at the engine alone, it's not a flaw of the SR20, just a study in quantity. If more people with SE-Rs wanted to have dedicated drag cars, more SE-Rs would be going stupidly fast at the strip.

Maybe it's just the same logic talking that made me want my SE-R in the first place, but wouldn't a non-FWD car be a better platform for the drag nut to drop a load of cash on? I got a SE-R because it's a big bang-for-the-buck tri-athlete: practical, sharp-handling, and decently quick. If straightline-only stuff were my only aim, I'd just get a V8/supercharged/loud something or other.

So, front-driver Honda compacts have a slight advantage among amateur/semi-pro import drag racers. Legit import dragging isn't rice, but it's a very narrow element of the enthusiast and motorsports spectrum. There are bigger and badder SR20 cars all over the world in FWD, RWD, and AWD form.

At the average Joe level, SR20DE cars don't give any ground to Hondas, and I bet you can go a good bit faster for less money.
 
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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
Most of the replies contend that there are three main reasons for Nissan's current performance; (1) lack of sponsorship, (2)lack of performance parts, (3) lack of interest.

(1)-The most common order of occurrence in racing is success first, sponsorship afterwards. Of course this is not always the case, but it is most of the time. Also, heavy sponsorship is no guarantee of success. (Evidenced by the Castrol Racing Civic in import drag racing, or even at the highest levels with British American Racing in Formula One)

(2)-I don't know much about parts availability but JimR has commented that there is not a deficiency. Furthermore, at the fringe of technology in import drag racing, most parts, esp. engine internals, are largely one-off parts and not off-the shelf products. For example, pistons and rods can be made by many companies specfic to an application provided the proper specs are given.

(3)Lack of interest. This would be a purely subjective debate so I'm going to ignore it.

the barebones, tube-frame cars being built share little with the street cars.
I would like to see an SR20 tube frame car. Going to a tube frame would present much more identical chassis than the OEM versions, and raise the level of the engine as the determining factor in performance.


Maybe it's just the same logic talking that made me want my SE-R in the first place, but wouldn't a non-FWD car be a better platform for the drag nut to drop a load of cash on? I got a SE-R because it's a big bang-for-the-buck tri-athlete: practical, sharp-handling, and decently quick. If straightline-only stuff were my only aim, I'd just get a V8/supercharged/loud something or other.
By that logic, the only car viable to drag race would be the one with the best performance-to-cost ratio, all other setups would be discarded, and we'd see hundreds of the same type of car drag racing. Im sure I don't need to remind you that FWD has its disadvantages in road racing, as well.
 

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All of the things you listed are due to one thing. There are just very few SR20 powered cars in production in the US. Even if every single person who drives an SR20 powered car was into performance, it still would not approach the number of Honda guys. An easy indication is just to look at the number of people registered on Nissan boards compared to Honda boards. They are not even close. If there are not enough people who want parts, then big time maufacturers are not going to try to develop extreme drag race cars.

Of course, I can only speak for the SR20 camp since that's the only one I know very well.

There are parts out there for Nissans, and most of them are very good parts because with such a small close knit community, word gets out very quickly on what is worth spending money on.

And watch out for these guys on this board. Some of them have come a very long way in a very short time. It may not be a Honda dominated world for long. :D
 

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sleeper
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(1)- Jamie Farrer has had success and making a name for himself. He does have a few sponsors now(not huge ones but sponsors nonetheless). Ben B. just got Venom on board which is great!

(2)- What SE-R's don't have in quantity of parts is made up by the quality of parts available. That's probably one of the reasons are cars are less ricey than Hondas (in general of course); no cheap parts are available to rice up our cars. Plus, all the ricers have hondas because that's all the know. They see someone else with a Honda and go get one themselves. Anywayz.... FMAX is the only main turbo kit builder for our cars right now but that's one hell of a kit! And JWT makes high quality, great performance go fast parts. Hell, it's probably easier to build up a 10 sec. se-r than a Honda due to the quality of our parts and less tuning involved to extract the max performance.

(3)- As for lack of interest... well, if anything, Nissans are getting more attention.
 

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Stuck on an island
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im just wondering if any one knows of some nissan successes from japan, england, and australia ?
 

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Pretty simple concept. Honda has many hatches that are way lighter than a b13/b14 chassis. Swap a honda motor in making 150-200whp and you'll have a fast car.
 

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last time that i checked honda has never had a production car that produced a twin turbo all wheel drive car that is pushing about 350 hp stock, do they? and to my knowlege most of the nissan motors are based off of the sr20de motor. just my observaion. dont get me wrong i still like hondas and i am a friend of Kenny Tran but nissans are still my weapon of choice,
chris:)
 
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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
NFL why are you posting here? Just thinking.
I wanted to pose a question to SR20DE owners. This board, in my opinion, was an excellent place to do such a thing. My query was sparked mainly by an assertation on this forum that the SR20DE was the best 4 cylinder ever produced.

Pretty simple concept. Honda has many hatches that are way lighter than a b13/b14 chassis. Swap a honda motor in making 150-200whp and you'll have a fast car.
That is true, but I was referring to the Pro classes where a tube chassis is allowed.

last time that i checked honda has never had a production car that produced a twin turbo all wheel drive car that is pushing about 350 hp stock, do they? and to my knowlege most of the nissan motors are based off of the sr20de motor. just my observaion. dont get me wrong i still like hondas and i am a friend of Kenny Tran but nissans are still my weapon of choice,
Your comment might be valid in an overall Nissan vs. Honda flame war, but this is not such a discussion. You're wandering far off-topic. I could just as easily point out Nissan's pitiful presence in open-wheel racing, but this comment would be equally off topic as yours.

Let me narrow the topic somewhat. If we can agree that :

1. The SR20 is the best 4 cyl engine ever produced.
2. The best showcase for an engine would be in a tube frame drag car, by virtue of the engine having the greatest effect on performance.

It seems logical to conclude that the SR20 should be in the fastest drag cars. But, they aren't. True, the JUN car was very fast, but it did not compete in a class; it was an exhibition vehicle. True comparisons can only be made against cars in the same class.
 

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Hmm.. as for the sr20 being the best 4 cylinder ever... I dunno, the MR2(older turbo model) motor is pretty badass. But, the reason why the sr20 is so badass; it was designed for racing. If I remember correctly, it was designed to compete in rally car racing (sr20det). Not to mention its use in british touring car races.

If you look at the Honda B series motors, I think their original purpose was for fuel economy and efficiency. It just happened that the import world here in the states started out with Hondas must likely because that's what every kid got as a first car. The B series motors are undersquare if I remember correctly meaning they have a relatively long stroke and a not so great rod/stroke ratio or whatever. If you look at the new motor in the RSX, it's square just the sr20.

So why aren't Nissan's running first in class? Well, Jamie has been the first guy in a Nissan to go fast enough to be at a competitive level and he's only been in it for 2-3 years now? Honda's have a huge head start. There is that dodge neon that ran really really fast though..... So who wants to go build a tube frame car to compete with Steve P.? If someone wants to give me the money I will :)

Khiem
 

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again i think that this whole thing goes back to the money issue. if you see a honda at the track that is running 9 sec., you usually dont see any paint and all stickers. if you see a nissan running at the track they might have a JWT sticker on it, and thats just to show whats under the hood. just as spdrecerUT said if someone wants to give me the money, i too might have a 9 sec car. its all in prospective. just my thoughts
chris:)
 

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sleeper
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Oh yeah.... another difference between the motors, the sr20 has a closed deck whereas the B series is open deck. That's why the Hondas HAVE to get their blocks/cylinders sleeved to run high boost. There are a few other things as well which make the SR block stronger than the B series.
 

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NLF said:

Let me narrow the topic somewhat. If we can agree that :

1. The SR20 is the best 4 cyl engine ever produced.
2. The best showcase for an engine would be in a tube frame drag car, by virtue of the engine having the greatest effect on performance.

It seems logical to conclude that the SR20 should be in the fastest drag cars. But, they aren't. True, the JUN car was very fast, but it did not compete in a class; it was an exhibition vehicle. True comparisons can only be made against cars in the same class.
I hate to break it to you, but professional racing is not about going as fast as possible. There are a few things which have WAAAAY higher priority in the racing business. Money, Money and More Money. Where is money to be made? Selling things, and the more profitable model is LOTS of things of various quality(Honda stuff), as opposed to a few high quality, small-market things(Nissan stuff). If you're a company that makes products for both, you're gonna sponser the more popular car. A lot of companies pass Nissan right by, which can be a blessing in some respects as others have pointed out.

The JUN Silvia is an excellent example of this. They had a car that could STOMP the competition at the time, but they didn't even bother to run it in a series, because there wasn't a market for JUN products that would allow them to recoup the costs of campaigning a car. So they did some exhibition runs, wowed everone, and packed it up and went back home. They were sowing the seeds in some respect.

Now, somewhere along the line Nissan completely dropped the ball and people stopped buying their cars. There's a lot of reasons for this and the fact they had a wonderful engine in the SR20 became irrelevant as they hovered near bankruptcy.

The bottom line is money talks. What "logically" would be the fastest car becomes bullshit in the face of that.
 
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