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Get Some!!
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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
What about going with steel-braided lines & new MC in addition to what ya'll were talking about in the last thread? Do you think this would help too?

The reason I'm asking is my brakes suck ass! They are all OEM w/ 110k and I've only replaced the pads ONCE! I need to replace everything I possibly can and get the best braking experience possible AND still be able to use my stock 14" wheels.

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Jason N. -- '92 Black Classic
JWT ECU
JWT Cams
JWT POP Adapted to:
PRI CAI
HS Header
2 1/2" Pipe in CAT's Place
GReddy Cat Back
 

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employment whiplash, NC
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I will be doing Goodridge SS lines but not the master cylinder, at least not yet. Also, if you've never changed the brake fluid, do that. I bought a 1982 280ZX about 6 years ago with ~130,000 miles on it and I'm dead sure the fluid was what was in it when it shipped from Japan. I changed the fluid and it made a great difference in feel and control. Before, it was very unsettled, like the rear wanted to step out under even moderate braking. After a fluid change, it was perfectly smooth and stable.

Also, check those caliper pins. I had slightly bent pins in my right front calpier earlier this year and it sucked. The right ALWAYS locked first and wanted to spin the car. This is NOT a good feeling, especially when I was going 120mph into turn 1 at Summit Point and the car wants to turn well before I did. It really sucked. New pins are pretty cheap.

One note on brake lines: DO NOT buy Russell lines. I had big time fitment problems with Russell. Everyone I talked to (after the fact of course) said they had similar problems and Russell is well know for quality problems (leaks, defective fittings, totally wrong fittings, etc.) Stick with Goodridge. You get what you pay for.

And really, unless you are doing track stuff, I wouldn't do the NX2000 brakes. I'm quickly finding the parts are far more expensive than the SE-R stuff. Just rebuild the stock ones, put on SS lines and new pads and you're done.

Matt



[This message has been edited by MaddMatt (edited 12-21-2000).]
 

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pwnd
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Well i disagree. if you need new rotors up front, which im sure you probaly do, i would do the upgrade to the AD22VF's. I love them. and if you gota replace the rotor, i would atleast rebuild the calp. and the thing is i dont trust my work totaly so i decided that it was easier and safer to get the upgrade.

parts arent that hard to find its just a matter of what you want to pay. the rotors are like 45 bucks from courtsey and thats about the same as regular stock rotors. then the calps you can get from about any parts store just make sure you get "loaded" calps. check to see if they have the "torque member" or mounting bracket depending on what they call it. You can probaly pick these up for about 80 a piece with a 80 dollar core charge probaly, dont quote me on those
. then you can take your old cores back they probaly wont notice, or if your one that thinks thats wrong dont do it.

i would also look at your rear brakes. put atleast new pads on. maybe rotors if you need them. but usualy the rears dont do a lot and not in bad shape. by putting new pads on the rear my car stops a hell of a lot better. i didnt rebuild the calp just slapped 15 dollar wagner pads from advanced on there they work great.

throughly bleed your system. you can go with expensive fluid but unless you know you are going to burn up fluid i personly wouldnt use it. i use the valveoline syntech from walmart. 5 bucks for a big quart of it. it has just as high of a boiling point as motul 600( i looked at ben's when we put it in ). most people realy like the fluid ive talked to, some performanve guys and some mechanics. ford fluid is good but slightly more than valveoline cheaper than motul tho. i figure at 5 bucks for a quart im going to change it frequently for the heck of it. gave me good pedal pressure too. and i used almost the full bottle when i flushed my system just to get clean fluid in there.

MC, well personaly i dont think you should change it. if you are worried about it i might think about just getting a new one from courtsey. but everyone i have talked to said the nx mc made the pedal mushy.

brake lines, ok they arent DOT aproved but the SMC lines are NICE. seeing them in person i am wanting a set. Steve did a good job in these lines. there are some of his products i wouldnt buy(he even said with his own mouth a few of his products are crap, be that they arent se-r products but they are crap) me and dad talked with him for a couple hours since dad makes brakes for a living. but the lines are worth their money. they just dont pass the whip test, which in reality the line never goes though that kinda strain in real life. they get pulled. Kojima broke a set of goodridge lines at the convention just by pulling on them, (
). he had them in his hand and pulled the fitting off by accident. personaly i would stay away from them, but its up to you. they will make your pedal even more firm

for sticking under the rims, be preparied to sit with a bench grinder for the better part of the afternoon. i started on my upgrade at 10am finished at 5pm. mainly cause we had to drive 20 mins to get to the grinder like 4 or 5 times. but after you get them fitted its a breeze. 2 bolts and the banjo bolt and the old brakes come off. slide new rotors on, 2 bolts, 2 pins, clips, pads, banjo bolt and you are ready to fill with new fluid. it will take a lot of fluid since the line will be emptyed somewhat so buy a lot of fluid.

and then bleed, do it a couple times i found its easier to put the car up on 4 jack stands and take all the wheels off. then go around the car 2 or 3 times
make them good. oh grease up your pins really good that helps alot. then bed in the pads right. do the kojima bedding tips makes your pads last longer.

as for upgrades on the back, there isnt much. according to jez you can put japan spec nx stuff back there they are slightly bigger. or you can do the even bigger upgrade and put maxima calps on nx rotors but i think its too much work. if you are that conserned with the calps have them rebuilt or replaced, along with rotors. i would guess replacing all 4 corners would cost maybe 500 dollars with everything you should need to do the work.

as for not doing the ad22vf upgrade unless you are on track thats up to you. i like the added thickness to the rotors so i dont have to replace them every year. had my old rotors turned and within a couple months they were warped. and i like the added saftey, they just take getting used to. you will be stoping way early at red lights by accident, then when you stomp them you will lock the front, but they are VERY modulatable. you can really control the brakes alot more, just wish i had SS lines so i could get more control. IMHO stoping is more important than speed/quickness. if you can break better,later,quicker you will beat the other person
.

any other questions


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Thats my opinion and I could be wrong

93 classic
Aztec Red, Automatic, POP, STB, OEC battery tie down, AD22VF's, Pirelli P4000's

 

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713 ways to be a dick!
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I have a question. I have the NX2K calipers for an upgrade. I pulled them apart to be powder coated and now it's time to rebuild them! I got the rebuild kits from Nissan and new pins and bolts. Problem is the rebuild doesn't come with the plug that goes in the hole on the torque member. Know what I'm talking about? Their are two holes in the bracket, one has the rubber tube that goes through it and the pin slides into that. The other getss a metal plug with a rubber covering. I can;t find the plugs at Nissan and Old Man doesn't have an answer either. Any of you guys got some tips? This is my only hold up. Below are some pics. to refresh yur memory of how they look






late,
wes

www.wes.nissanpower.com



[This message has been edited by wes (edited 12-21-2000).]
 

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pwnd
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hmmm not actualy sure of the part. you dont have it from when you pulled them apart? hmmmm checked to see if the one on the car now has the same size and/or type of plug to see if you can swap them over? i know the bleeder screws are the same
i broke one off the new calp during transporting them to the grinder and back so many times. nobody had bleeder screws so pulled one out of my old calp, its worked fine. now need to go get speed bleeders
 

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employment whiplash, NC
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Disclaimer: The following info is true ONLY if you have a properly working well balanced braking system.

The only thing that affects the stopping distance of your car is: 1) weight of the car, and 2) friction between the road and the tires. You are probably saying I'm full of **** right now. But think for a minute, if you can lock your brakes up with the calipers and rotors and pads you have now, what will you gain from larger caliper/rotors? It's the tires that actually stop your car. They are what is in contact with the road. Buying better tires will shorten your stopping distance and pulling weight out of the car will shorten your distance, but nothing else will. Putting bigger brakes on should make the stopping experinece easier on your leg since you'll need less pedal pressure to stop the car, but the car will not stop in a shorter distance. You just think it does because you, the driver, are exerting less effort to stop.

So now you're saying "Well Matt, if it doesn't shorten you stopping distance, why are YOU changing to the AD22VF brakes?" I'm changing purely from a thermal management issue. The stock SE-R brakes are just not up to the task of stopping my car repeatedly all weekend without fade. On track, heat is your enemy. The AD22VF rotors have far more metal in them to absorb the heat. My pads and my rotors will last longer, and I'll hopefully save money in the long run because of it.

So, I still say, unless you are doing track schools/racing, you probably don't need the NX2K brakes and they won't stop you faster. I don't care what SCC said about the NX2000 brakes in the Octember issue. Weight, and tires are all the affect breaking distance. Pick up the latest issue of Grassroots Motorsports. It's all there.

Give me a few minutes to put on a Kevlar suit before you flame me.

Matt
 

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<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by MaddMatt:
So now you're saying "Well Matt, if it doesn't shorten you stopping distance, why are YOU changing to the AD22VF brakes?" I'm changing purely from a thermal management issue. The stock SE-R brakes are just not up to the task of stopping my car repeatedly all weekend without fade. On track, heat is your enemy. The AD22VF rotors have far more metal in them to absorb the heat. My pads and my rotors will last longer, and I'll hopefully save money in the long run because of it.

So, I still say, unless you are doing track schools/racing, you probably don't need the NX2K brakes and they won't stop you faster. I don't care what SCC said about the NX2000 brakes in the Octember issue. Weight, and tires are all the affect breaking distance. Pick up the latest issue of Grassroots Motorsports. It's all there.

Give me a few minutes to put on a Kevlar suit before you flame me.
</font>
I ran track events for 3 years on stock SE-R brakes and had no problems stopping ... at least for the first couple sessions. The "thermal management issue" as MadMatt pointed out is the only reason I'm installing NX2000 brakes. With my level of experience (I drive FAST
), I'm hoping the NX2000 brakes give me a bit more confidence in the 4th session of a track day when I have clear track and I'm trying to get into the 1:29s at Summit Point.
 

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merely a flesh wound
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Matt wrote:

And really, unless you are doing track stuff, I wouldn't do the NX2000 brakes. I'm quickly finding the parts are far more expensive than the SE-R stuff. Just rebuild the stock ones, put on SS lines and new pads and you're done.
Matt

Woah Matt! Do you know something nobody else does, if so, please share it. You’ve read my post on the ‘NX2000 brakes on 91-94 SE-R’ thread which has specific part numbers and prices for the AD22VF’s. CarParts actually dropped the price on the calipers to $43 each, and you can get Brembo rotors from Stranoparts.com for $50 each, or, according to Bowlcut, Nissan rotors from Courtesy for $45. Use a Carparts 33% off coupon from importhookup.com on the calipers and your total is $145 or less plus shipping. You think this is expensive? It’s so inexpensive that it doesn’t even pay to check prices on the stock SE-R brakes.

I ain’t making this up, and I’m not the first to do it, here’s an ANCIENT post from se-r.net;

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B13 Upgrade Alternative
Written by Matt Eads

For an inexpensive alternative to the NISMO B13 Upgrade, one need only buy "loaded" front calipers [for a 91-93 Japanese, ABS NX2000] from an auto parts store [$58+ $14 core charge from Pep Boys]. It includes everything you need except the rotors and the [optional] master cylinder. A little birdy told me that as long as you return your [smaller] Sentra calipers *after* picking up the AD22VF's, you can get your core charge back. Even if you don't get back the core charge, this is a steal compared to what Nissan wants. The pads that come with the calipers [Wagners I think] aren't as good as the OEM units that come with the B13 kit, but George Roffe said they're decent. Even if you chuck the Wagner pads your still saving a lot of cash.
Note: Make sure "AD22VF" is visible on the top of the caliper; it took me a couple times to get the right ones from Pep Boys.
The other [obvious] cheap alternative is to get some calipers/rotors off a junked NX2000. A complete overhaul [including new caliper pins] can be done for about $23 a side [just new seals/bushings are about $15/caliper]. The job is fairly easy but getting the old rubber bushings out can be a bitch.

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At today’s prices, do you think it makes sense to buy junked calipers, pay over $20 per side to rebuild them, and STILL have to buy new pads?

I also disagree with your comment that the upgraded brakes are only beneficial on the race track. Every time I stop, I’m glad I did the upgrade. THERE IS NO DOWNSIDE TO PUTTING LARGER BRAKES ON YOUR SE-R.

If anyone is concerned about the brake bias, check the mailing list archives. You may find a small difference of opinion, but the overwhelming majority of people are pleased with the AD22VF / stock master cylinder setup.

As for grinding the calipers, get a Dremel. Use a coarse sanding wheel to grind the caliper, and a cutoff wheel to modify the backing plate. It won’t take more than an hour per side. A low end, two-speed Dremel is less than $40 at Sears, and is the third handiest thing I own (behind my Leatherman Micra, and Palm Pilot), and when you get a CAI, you can use it to enlarge the fender hole to accommodate the intake pipe.

Don’t take this as a flame, I just don’t want anyone to decide not to do this based on one person’s opinion. Many people have done this procedure and are happy with it. Most of them paid double current prices or more, and I’d bet you can’t find one of them that would trade back to stock brakes.

Chris Scarpulla
92 SE-R
 

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713 ways to be a dick!
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Thanks for the tips BOWLCUT but One of the pins was stuck so I had to heat it up to get it out, result=melted rubber. And my current brakes don't have them. I'm just going to try and find something that will fit in there. It's only to keep dirt out anyway. At least I still have a junked one from when I took them out so I can match up the sizes! Anyone else have any ideas?

late,
wes

[This message has been edited by wes (edited 12-21-2000).]
 

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employment whiplash, NC
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Wow, those prices on rotors are the cheapest I've seen for the NX2K. I meant to give a thanks to Bowlcut for that info, but I forgot. So...Thanks
. That'll make my conversion a bit easier on the wallet. Can someone post the number for Courtesy so I don't have to dig through 1/2 ton of old posts? Thanks in advance.

The prices I've found so far were the one's on Carparts.com for $60something. That's quite a bit more than the $35 I paid for my last set of SE-R rotors. And since I need 2 sets, one for street, one for track (yes there is a reason and that can be an entire other topic), it started to add up. A local shop here in Durham gives racers parts at wholesale + tax. For Brembo NX2K rotors, that still translated into $75. U.S. dollars, not Canadian. Each. Yes, $45 will do nicely thank you.

Matt
 

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merely a flesh wound
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Matt,

Go to the Dealers section of www.se-r.net , Courtesy has been a mainstay of the mailing list for years, sell Nissan parts for 25% off list price, and have great customer service. They also sell performance parts.

Ask for Vince.

Chris Scarpulla
92 SE-R
 

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employment whiplash, NC
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Thanks Chris. I'll call them when I order the calipers later this week or next.

OK, I'll backtrack a bit and give you guys some credit. Perhaps I got a little too worked up there. I think that the SE-R has a little too much rear brake bias, as my rear brakes lock before the front. Remember my disclaimer, that was only true for properly working well brake-balanced cars. So, installing the larger rotor/calipers from the NX20000 should swing that bias more toward the front (right??, or am I thinking backwards???). So, yeah, OK, you might stop a few (I sress a few) feet shorter. I just didn't want anyone to get the idea they were going to do this conversion and immediately begin to outbrake their neighbor's 911 Turbo. It's not going to happen unless you also put the 275+mm wide tires from the Porche onto the SE-R. A couple of feet is all you *might* get.

This has been a good discussion. I've enjoyed it and hope I didn't step on any toes or hurt feelings.

Now I gotta go work to pay for everything I want to do to my car this winter


Matt
 

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pwnd
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I was never able to get enough bite to lock up the fronts before EVER. then i put the ad22vf's on there and admittly my tires were about gone(but decent tred left) they locked up for a good 10 feet when i was showing them off to a friend. slight modulation and they came back just to get ultimate stoping you jab them hard, release a litte and get back into them (more like a pump). I cant threshold brake like dad can so i give a little hard punch then back off and give a little back. Dad bout damn put me though the window the night i put them on. given all is equal, good tires, well bled system, good shape lines, equal pad, clean rotors, if you stop with the stock ones, then put on the ad22vf's and bring them to exact same they will stop shorter. period.

more swept area. while they have a broader pad which does equal to less pressure on rotor the over all friction area is increased. your brakes are designed to do ONE thing. convert rotional energy into heat. by the law of conversation of energy, energy can not be created nor lost. so that forward kinetic energy has to be turned into something. the rotional energy is where you get the forward motion. so stop you have to transfer that energy away, and the best way is to turn it into heat. the pads rub on the rotors to take the rotional energy and turn it into heat. the rotor is designed to be a big heat sink. it takes the heat and then disapates it away though the cooling fins and just radiation mostly. so the more contact area you have the more friction you can create which means more converstion of rotional energy to heat.

heres a way to show you this. take your finger and press on your palm and rub your palm back and forth. you can create alot of pressure on one point but it takes a lot of pressure to get your hand warm. now open your hand and rub your plams together. notice less pressure but you get the same if not more heat in your hand. and its also harder to move your hands. this is the difference in the size of the pads. with the smaller pads you get probaly a tighter clamping force but the over all heat is less. with a larger swept area you create more heat with the same amount of pressure. now you gota walk a fine line at which you are applying the maximum ammount of pressure you can before you break out of the traction circle and your tires cannot grip because there is more weight than they can handle at that pressure level at which point the will begin to slide instead of transfering the energy to the ground in the form of heat caused by friction.

the ad22vf's will allow you to stop shorter if all else is equal. but only marginaly shorter. like when i got these new tires, damn i stop on a dime. but you will notice is because you are used to a set level you push on your break. right after you get them installed for about a couple weeks you will still be in the habit of the old brakes. when coming up to a stop sign you will find yourself having to let off the brake and coast up then stop. cause your car is transfering the energy faster and more effeciently. but dont expect instant on off brakes. i was. the way everyone talked about them i thought it was going to be like a video game or something. but i did over all a quicker stoping car.

and this effecincy thing also goes into the fact that with the larger swept area you can transfer the heat away quicker. the heat has more surface area to radiate off of. and they are thicker so they can take more heat before they become totaly hot and start to warp. if you turn the stock rotors you are running a higher chance of warping the rotors so that was my deciding factor. these will last longer and give me a margin of saftey on the ability to stop.

as for those prices, check courtsey i could have been wrong but from what i remember they were the cheapest place to get rotors almost, got mine from jez when he worked at nissan. the calps are another story i would just call the shops around your place. but since you are ordering stock oem nx2000 rotors you get a discount from courtsey if you are on the list. which helps so ask for a set of rotors for a 92 nx2000 without abs if i remember correctly

now dont get me into cross-drilling(*coughcrapcough* and sloted)
 

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Get Some!!
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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
god I love physics...

I know x-drilling blows for the obvious reasons but I was always under the impression that slotted worked well due to its ability to "vent" dust, dirt/debris, and heat radially away from the rotor.
 

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employment whiplash, NC
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so the more contact area you have the
more friction you can create which means more converstion of rotional energy to
heat.

Only if you have better tires. As I said before, IF you can create enough friction between the rotor and pad to lock the tire with the stock SE-R brakes, you will not stop any shorter by putting larger brakes on. The amount of friction required to lock up the tire remains the same no matter what brakes you have on the car.

However, you said you couldn't lock the front tires no matter how hard you tried. OK, so obviously there's something to be gained there. Could better, higher friction coefficient pads help. Definitely. I have the same problem. With OE Nissan pads, I can't lock the front tires. The rear always locks first, which means I need more friction between the rotor/pad up front. A set of Hawk HT8 pads up front are the trick for me. Warm them up and my SE-R with STOCK OE BRAKES stops like a golf ball hitting a sand trap. Every instructor that has ridden in my car has commented on how well the car stops. "Holy **** this thing stops!!!" is the usual comment. I garuntee that provided our cars have the same weight and tires, I will stop just as quick as you if I have those high friction track pads on. Garunteed, take it to the bank.

I completely 100% agree with you about the larger rotors being a bigger heat sink. That's why I'm getting them. I generate so much temperature (there's a difference between heat and temperature) that I eat through pads and rotors at an alarming rate. No pad I've found can take those temperatures. I should be able to reduce my brake temps by a few hundred degrees.

Matt
 

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merely a flesh wound
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Here's an interesting tidbit. Porsche actually casts their rotors with the holes, they're not drilled.

Chris Scarpulla
92 SE-R
 

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employment whiplash, NC
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Sounds like we've achieved the same results by 2 different methods
. Both of the things we've done have effectively shifted the brake bias a bit more to the front which is what this car needs. I suppose there's a good reason they came from Japan in early '91 with the big brakes, right
.

Anywho, have a good Christmas and New Year.

L8R,
Matt
 

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pwnd
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hmmm that is interesting. wonder how they surface them. cause you cant just put sand castings on a car
. i bet the dideshiems(machine that we use to make rotors) and the microfinishers dont like them castings
. damn germans. lol yesterday one of the dideshiems unchucked a rotor in midcycle, and threw a 20lb rotor though 2 4 inch bullet proof and reinforced doors. scared the **** out of the operater dad said, i know i would have to clean my pants out.

but they still have to finish them, but i bet the insides arent as prone to cracking since they should be champhered in the casting. again, damn germans, and i learn something everday
 

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pwnd
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you made a pretty good comment in there. you say with your current pads after you heat them up they stop like a bitch. thats a good point. if you are daily driving you DONT want that kind of pad on your car. pads have a proper operating tempature and they work well in that tempature. those hawks have to be warm/hot. where as daily driving you want a pad that is designed for cold stops. cause you need to be able to stop like after crusing on the highway for an hour then traffic stops and you slam on your brakes your pads/rotors are cold. thermal management is key with brakes.

as for stoping better with those agressive hawks, i wouldnt doubt it. but you also eat though rotors like mad. if i put a set on these ad22vf's (remember all being equal) i bet they will stop a little(marginaly) shorter distance, with less fade and less chance of warping the rotors. those hawk pads are probaly slightly scary on the road for my tastes. and again we arent being equal with your statemnet.

my brake system was in good shape until probaly a month ago. my {ex}mechanic made my brakes worse right after i bought it. but i dont think the "you dont need them unless you are on the track" thinking is worth a damn. they do stop a little better, warp less rotors, and offer a better feel than the stock setup. if your calps were shot, ie needing a rebuild as mine were, looking at the swap should be an option. its only maybe 150 bucks more instead of a rebuild and new rotors. and i didnt want to trust myself rebuilding the calps. i know everyone says the se-r stock system is really good and fine for street use. but when you pick up the ad22vf rotor and the stock one you will just smile. i have seen bigger, made bigger, drove bigger brakes but these things are nice. you look at your rotor now and say "yea thats a big rotor for the car" which it is, for soccer moms they are probaly oversized. but you grab that ad22vf rotor and its a whole new world. its like 3 times the thickness if you have had your rotors turned, and bout an inch bigger in diamater. the calp doesnt really look that much bigger just sitting there. but right before you do the swap just do a side by side.

my current setup makes me happy. its civilized up top. you can put your foot on the pedal and with little pressure on it you slow down, if needed go past the first 1/2 inch maybe and you fly forward in the seat. ive not driven many cars that have the bite, and still civilized. Josh's Type R are pretty good and i swear i like mine better and i think i can out brake him. i was worried when i felt the weight of the box of parts that it would slow the car down with unsprung weight, and hurt acceleration. it really didnt, actualy improved gas mileage
. i attest that to my pads were dragging and stuff like that more than anything else.

arguing that a stock system with SS lines and hawks will out stop a car with ad22vf's with nissan pads and rubber lines is kinda pointless. you like your setup and i like mine. but when you put them on i bet they will put a huge grin on your face. the one time they save your butt, or just the first time you stab it after you bed the pads and you just fly forward i think you will like. then the fun doesnt stop there you can do this 100 times and it will be the same.

hehehe cross drills do suck for someone that cant replace the rotors every month. think about it, front rotors are almost always ventalated rotors(ie two disks with air in the middle of them). the holes need to be champhered to keep them from cracking between the holes. ok they can champher the front and back, so what bout the inside of the vents? hmmmmm probaly never thought of that have ya
. lol at the convention Steve was happy dad finaly shut up. dad was about to ask that, Steve was talking to us and said with his own mouth he was glad dad didnt ask cause he knew that was where he was going
. Steve knows his stuff but hes also a salesman, (hehehe his dad was a used car salesman too). his wife is a nice lady and even says he isnt the smartest in the world
. the cross drilling helps cool and disapate the gas let off by the pads but they are going to crack much quicker than most will say. yes porsche and such use them but also the people that buy those are able to afford replacing those 18" rotors. if you are going for a compermise between stoping and long life they arent good. if you are goign for looks by all means grab a set. but i wouldnt own a set. sloted are a better option if you want them to last longer. the slots allow it to let the gas out, and also shave a small part of the pad off keeping glazing down but you end up having to replace you pad a little more often. but pads are cheap. oh well....i got solid rotors on mine and thats how its going to stay
 
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