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Simple question Natural power no turbo,nos,or supercharger GSR or SE-R who will make the most power?
SE-R or B18C?
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So both of them stroked the GSR would take it?
[This message has been edited by nupinpanty (edited 08-08-2001).]
[This message has been edited by nupinpanty (edited 08-08-2001).]
And one thing, vtech kicks ass. Im sorry, but it does. The ability to have a baby butt smooth idle, yet have a big ass cam in there. Yea gota wring the piss out of it, but a set of good cams for an SR doesnt start really making power till about the same area usualy.
Horsepower is king, but torque is your friend. IMO, if you drive a vtec on a daily basis, it's a dog unless you drive it like you've just stolen it. It's terrible when it's on the small cam. The SR20, on the other hand, has a nice flat torque curve and is so smooth and easy to drive around town.
Need to pass someone on a 2 lane road? In a GS-R, you've got to drop to 3rd to make sure you're on the big cam and rev the **** out of it. In my SE-R, I leave it in 5th and pass no problem. If someone's in the car with me, I might reach for 4th.
However, on a road course, the VTEC is in it's element. It's always on the big cam. I have a friend with a GS-R and very similar mods to my SE-R and I have nothing for him on the straights. He's got me by at least 5 mph into the braking zone. Some of it may be hp, and some may be aerodynamics, but the simple fact is, above about 90-100 mph, he just walks away from me.
Now, on a autocross course where you're using a much wider rpm range, he falls off the big cam and I kick his ass.
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Matt
92 SE-R from Heck
"What have you DONE to that thing..." - stranger at Rockingham dragway 5/18/01
"Where's the turbo?" - stranger at the 1st autocross of 2000 where my SE-R debuted
"That thing is a goddamn rocket ship. I'm not lifting for you on the straights anymore!" -Karl Shultz, Rockingham 4/27/01
"What in the hell have you done since I drove it last?" -David Stone, Rockingham 4/27/01
Need to pass someone on a 2 lane road? In a GS-R, you've got to drop to 3rd to make sure you're on the big cam and rev the **** out of it. In my SE-R, I leave it in 5th and pass no problem. If someone's in the car with me, I might reach for 4th.
However, on a road course, the VTEC is in it's element. It's always on the big cam. I have a friend with a GS-R and very similar mods to my SE-R and I have nothing for him on the straights. He's got me by at least 5 mph into the braking zone. Some of it may be hp, and some may be aerodynamics, but the simple fact is, above about 90-100 mph, he just walks away from me.
Now, on a autocross course where you're using a much wider rpm range, he falls off the big cam and I kick his ass.
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Matt
92 SE-R from Heck
"What have you DONE to that thing..." - stranger at Rockingham dragway 5/18/01
"Where's the turbo?" - stranger at the 1st autocross of 2000 where my SE-R debuted
"That thing is a goddamn rocket ship. I'm not lifting for you on the straights anymore!" -Karl Shultz, Rockingham 4/27/01
"What in the hell have you done since I drove it last?" -David Stone, Rockingham 4/27/01
NA... B18 without a doubt. You can get up to 240-250whp if you go with ITBs and lots of dyno time.
As for the b18 being a dog in daily driving... not true. Heck, I have a b16 and it's just fine around town. It has enough usable torque for daily driving... not as much as the SR20... but enough to get the job done and that's what counts right? Sure I have to rev it more but you get used to that real quick.
It's all about personal preference I guess... I like both engines.
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- Yosho
'96 200SX SE-R
'00 Civic Si EBP
As for the b18 being a dog in daily driving... not true. Heck, I have a b16 and it's just fine around town. It has enough usable torque for daily driving... not as much as the SR20... but enough to get the job done and that's what counts right? Sure I have to rev it more but you get used to that real quick.
It's all about personal preference I guess... I like both engines.
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- Yosho
'96 200SX SE-R
'00 Civic Si EBP
Yup, personal preference. Everyone has an opinion. The debate has been going on since the gen 3 Integra came out. And it'll be going on for years to come. Personally for all-purpose driving (around town, auto-x, track schools) I prefer a torquey, flexible SR20. If I were to build a track-only car (and I didn't already have an SE-R) you'd find me in a GS-R.
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Matt
92 SE-R from Heck
"What have you DONE to that thing..." - stranger at Rockingham dragway 5/18/01
"Where's the turbo?" - stranger at the 1st autocross of 2000 where my SE-R debuted
"That thing is a goddamn rocket ship. I'm not lifting for you on the straights anymore!" -Karl Shultz, Rockingham 4/27/01
"What in the hell have you done since I drove it last?" -David Stone, Rockingham 4/27/01
Well give me the sr-20!!! why? Because for one everybody and his brother has an integra. Not so with the b13 , Yes I think the integras look better, I just like my SE-R better. As far as power,the peak power of the B-18 will always be higher. I had a friend with a '97 GS-R, same mods as me, i/h/e/c It was all SE-R 0-60 1-2 cars or better pull on me from 60-80 end up pretty even till 100 than he would pull slowly after that. But if I ran into GS-Rs with less mods bye bye. All personal preference.
[This message has been edited by skyliner (edited 08-09-2001).]
[This message has been edited by skyliner (edited 08-09-2001).]
My experince is totally different than yours on a road course. I have had many encounters with Type Rs and the drivers of the Rs were amazed at my car. And that was before the C3 cams and in one instance the TC suspension. Here are some excerpts of what I wrote back then
Excerpt #1
"The most exciting thing was my competition with Scott's Integra Type R. Later I learned that the car is a racer and Scott is an instructor. It has header, exhaust and full coilover suspension. So I am in my run group and I see him in my mirrors. So I decide to see what my car can do against an ITR. I know I should have let him through, but you need to have some fun. I was amazed. In the front straights it was a drag race. He could not pass me. In the slow corners I would pull in second and make distance between us. He would later catch me and then on the back end of the track I would pull again. On the second lap I signal for him to pass on the front straight and then I stay behind him, only to pass him on the back section on the track. This lasted for about two laps.
The next day I see him at pre-grid. He was waiting to ride with one of the newbies. He asks me if the SE-R is mine. I say yes. Then he says "what are you running in this thing. I had a hard time passing and keeping up with you." I tell him that I have all of the bolt-ons and Pro-kits/AGXs. But on the inside I was so proud of my car and my rookie abilities. This car rocks. It is so forgiving. It is hard to make mistakes with it, even at the limit."
Excerpt # 2: W/the TC suspension
"I also had a nice battle with Paul in an Integra Type R. That was during the first run on Sunday. He came and talked to me after the session and was very impressed with the car. He could not pass the car and had a hard time keeping up from the Bus Stop on, only to catch me by the esses and Cotton Corners. And so it went lap after lap. Until the final lap when we were three wide on the front straight and he was at the rear quarter panel and then the checkered flag come out. It was a blast. Both of us agreed that it was total fun."
Now with the C3 cams and the rev and speed limiter out of the way, I am pretty sure that I can wip on any Type R with bolt-ons.
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Naji Dahi, aka Red Mist
Fast 1998 SE-R Last of the SE-Rs
Slow 1996 G20 (AGXs/G20t springs, K&N drop in filter)
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1,570 Posts
<enjoy the silence>
[This message has been edited by RollcageSR20 (edited 08-09-2001).]
[This message has been edited by RollcageSR20 (edited 08-09-2001).]
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230 Posts
Do you keep a journal of all your experiences at the track? If so, that is frikkin cool. i'm gonna start doin that....
It is not about peak hp, it is about the area under the curve. Type Rs can make all the peak hp they want, but SE-rs have more area under the curve.
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Naji Dahi, aka Red Mist
Fast 1998 SE-R Last of the SE-Rs
Slow 1996 G20 (AGXs/G20t springs, K&N drop in filter)
You are either a truly exceptional driver or the guy in the Integra really isn't that great. It also may be the type of course you're driving doesn't favor the peaky B18. The track that I have nothing for the Integras on has 2 straight in which both are a few feet short of a mile (I'm not kidding!). The back straight is every bit of 4000' and the front straight is 3500+' I hit 120 mph on the back straight and ~117 on the front. My buddies GS-R hits 125 both places.
Agreed. But when the B18 is spending 90% of it's time on the big cam, there's more area under it's curve from 6000-8000 rpm than we have from 5000-7000. If it's not on the big cam 90% of the time on a road course, the driver is not doing something right.
All I know is, I have over $1000 in suspension mods and at least that in engine mods. This doesn't include sticky R-compound tires. I'm positive I could get in a stock Type R on street tires and beat my best SE-R lap by a second or more at just about any track.
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Matt
92 SE-R from Heck
"What have you DONE to that thing..." - stranger at Rockingham dragway 5/18/01
"Where's the turbo?" - stranger at the 1st autocross of 2000 where my SE-R debuted
"That thing is a goddamn rocket ship. I'm not lifting for you on the straights anymore!" -Karl Shultz, Rockingham 4/27/01
"What in the hell have you done since I drove it last?" -David Stone, Rockingham 4/27/01
One of the guys in the Integra was an instructor. He was a good driver. These guys came up and talked to me later on, so I am not imagining that they had a hard time dealing with the SE-R. When the other driver comes up and talks to you and is very impressed, then you know for sure that you gave the Type R a hard time.
You have a good point. The track that I am talking about has 16 turns and is somewhat technical. Low end grunt does matter in it. The track you are talking about is similar to Willow Springs. It has only 9 turns and long front and back straights.
I have not run against a Type R at Willow Springs. But I still think that I can whip on them now that I have raised the rev limiter and removed the lame 109 mph speed limiter.
And that is why the type of course you are driving on makes a big difference as you mentioned. It is hard to keep a Type R in that range at a technical course and perhaps that is why I was able to hang with them. A stock SE-R makes its power in the 5-7K range. But a modded C3 cammed one is different. The meat of my power band is 4500-8000 rpm. At 4500 rpm it is like a VTEC kicked in
Your probably running AGXs/GCs and ST bars. The AGXs/GCs have their limits. You need a shortened suspension. There is no alternative. It makes a world of difference by removing the bottoming out effect.
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Naji Dahi, aka Red Mist
Fast 1998 SE-R Last of the SE-Rs
Slow 1996 G20 (AGXs/G20t springs, K&N drop in filter)
I get back to it that you do not see SR20DE motors being the favorite among the Japanese racing world. Why is it that they choose the B18C over the SR20DE? Is this really a fair compairison anyways? A better compairison would be the B18C vs the SR20VE (it's just not something that's easy to come by).
I love my Nissan... heck, I'm trying to get a job as an apprentice technican at my Nissan dealership... but to my knowledge, the B18C has a higher potential for NA applications, and has been mentioned... you have to look at the powerband you'll be working in. The B18C has plenty of mid/high power, especially after you throw some Toda Spec C's and pistons in it.
I think you'd be hard pressed to say that a SR20 with new high compression pistons and S4 cams would make more power than a B18C with the Toda Spec C package.
One thing I WOULD like to know though is what an SR20 with a Toda or Jun stroker kit would bring. I don't know if anyone in the US has done this...
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- Yosho
'96 200SX SE-R
'00 Civic Si EBP
I love my Nissan... heck, I'm trying to get a job as an apprentice technican at my Nissan dealership... but to my knowledge, the B18C has a higher potential for NA applications, and has been mentioned... you have to look at the powerband you'll be working in. The B18C has plenty of mid/high power, especially after you throw some Toda Spec C's and pistons in it.
I think you'd be hard pressed to say that a SR20 with new high compression pistons and S4 cams would make more power than a B18C with the Toda Spec C package.
One thing I WOULD like to know though is what an SR20 with a Toda or Jun stroker kit would bring. I don't know if anyone in the US has done this...
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- Yosho
'96 200SX SE-R
'00 Civic Si EBP
"is this really a fair comparison anyways?"
this is exactly the comparison i made 4 years ago when i bought my '93 classic and then i would agree it is a fair comparison and i chose the sr20 and my only criteria was the engine...being that i am into american v8s i wanted to find the best 4cyl motor and i came down to the b18 versus the sr20 and in my opinion the b18 doesn't even come close if you want a fair comparison today you need to compare the sr20 with the 2litre thats in the rsx putting out over 200hp stock...and the honda 2 litre would more than likely be the better choice however i don't know anything about this engine to make an educated decision. i also think you really need to turbo a 4cyl to make acceptable to my driving habits and vehicle requriments...and while there maybe better engines out there in my eyes the best turbo 4 is the sr20 just check out sept scc the b18 featured has many more mods then the sr20 and the sr20 is a daily driver with full exhaust something the b18 car is not ant that b18 is only putting out like15 horsepower more than the sr20 with being down on torque...and like i said earlier i like v8s i like torque!!!
87 r10 350 tpi(out of '91 z28)
89 yj 302 efi(out of '93 mustang)
93 ser 2.0(waiting for a gtir swap;o)
this is exactly the comparison i made 4 years ago when i bought my '93 classic and then i would agree it is a fair comparison and i chose the sr20 and my only criteria was the engine...being that i am into american v8s i wanted to find the best 4cyl motor and i came down to the b18 versus the sr20 and in my opinion the b18 doesn't even come close if you want a fair comparison today you need to compare the sr20 with the 2litre thats in the rsx putting out over 200hp stock...and the honda 2 litre would more than likely be the better choice however i don't know anything about this engine to make an educated decision. i also think you really need to turbo a 4cyl to make acceptable to my driving habits and vehicle requriments...and while there maybe better engines out there in my eyes the best turbo 4 is the sr20 just check out sept scc the b18 featured has many more mods then the sr20 and the sr20 is a daily driver with full exhaust something the b18 car is not ant that b18 is only putting out like15 horsepower more than the sr20 with being down on torque...and like i said earlier i like v8s i like torque!!!
87 r10 350 tpi(out of '91 z28)
89 yj 302 efi(out of '93 mustang)
93 ser 2.0(waiting for a gtir swap;o)
C
civicgsr
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Here's what I've got.
Last fall, I swapped the B18C1 into my civic. Armed with only an AEM intake and exhaust, I consistently pulled on Ben's sentra which was similarly equipped.
On the street, I would creep on him until about 4th gear and I then pulled away hard. At the strip I was consistently quicker.
As for driveability, I drove Ben's sentra pre-turbo and I really liked the torque. Compared to my civic, it had more torque way down low.
As for passing power, I don't need to downshift. If I downshit, I want to pass with wreckless abandon. Those with SR20's will do just the same, fat torque or no fat torque.
NA tuning? How much do you want to spend? Straight up bolt ons? The b18C1 will reign king. i/h/e in both cases, the B18C1 will be faster.
Which would I have? The sentra is a nice car, but not me. I love my civic and I love it even more post swap. To let you know that I'm not completely biased, I just picked up an S14 240SX which will be receiving some SR20DET power.
Both Nissan and Honda living together....mass hysteria!!! (GB)
-Alex
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"First we get jobs, then we get khakis, then we get the chicks"
Last fall, I swapped the B18C1 into my civic. Armed with only an AEM intake and exhaust, I consistently pulled on Ben's sentra which was similarly equipped.
On the street, I would creep on him until about 4th gear and I then pulled away hard. At the strip I was consistently quicker.
As for driveability, I drove Ben's sentra pre-turbo and I really liked the torque. Compared to my civic, it had more torque way down low.
As for passing power, I don't need to downshift. If I downshit, I want to pass with wreckless abandon. Those with SR20's will do just the same, fat torque or no fat torque.
NA tuning? How much do you want to spend? Straight up bolt ons? The b18C1 will reign king. i/h/e in both cases, the B18C1 will be faster.
Which would I have? The sentra is a nice car, but not me. I love my civic and I love it even more post swap. To let you know that I'm not completely biased, I just picked up an S14 240SX which will be receiving some SR20DET power.
Both Nissan and Honda living together....mass hysteria!!! (GB)
-Alex
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"First we get jobs, then we get khakis, then we get the chicks"
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