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The Real Truth about Water Injection

Well there are opinions and there are facts. Opinions are what someone thinks. Facts are statements that can be backed up by data.

Well here is the real truth about water.
Mike stated his opinion like it was a fact but it is just his opinion, here are some facts about how water injection really works.

I don't think anyone has gotten more power from a stock SR20DE than the cars that I advise/tune. So far the reliabilty of these cars, it has been perfect with nary a burnt plug between them. These engines are not even built internaly one bit but they last!

We have been intending to build Ryans motor but it refuses to blow up so we have never gotten around to it! I think Jay H is doing the same, I even told him that I think he is pushing it with 22 psi on cast pistons but his car is still running strong.

It is not out of arrogance that I say that but it is the truth as far as I know. I get 296 wheel hp on 92 octane unleaded california pee water running through a cat on a stock engine. With some turbo tweeks that I have learnd since I can probably now make more but I have not gotten around to do that testing yet.

Ryan's car makes 392 hp to the wheels on a bone stock bottom end, has over 100k miles on it and has been mega turboed for 60k of those miles.

Jay's car probably puts out even more as he has some differet things we learned since Ryan car was built a few years ago. Mike Majors car puts out over 320 wheel hp and runs low 12's in full ungutted street trim with a CAT and unleaded fuel.

Jay has run 122 mph in the 1/4 mile. All with stock engines with cast pistons and high compression. Not a single one of these cars has hurt a motor running up to 22 psi even when being pounded road racing on 100 degree days which is way harder on a motor than any drag race. Ryans motor did not even wince when I took it to 7700 rpm in fifth at 17 psi on pump gas.

All of these cars are capable of running in the 11's with the right traction conditions, it is just a matter of time untill somone does it. It would have been long ago but Mike and Ryan are not into dragging that much and only go out about once or twice a year. Jay was busy last summer and now the weather is bad, check out his MPH. One of these guys will be in the 11's this summer on a stock bottom end.

I attrbute all of this solely to water injection. Not just any water system but the ERL aquamist system with it's high pump pressure and wide range of tuneabilty.

The rest of you guys have your opinions but those are the facts and that is the data. I challange anyone to get more hp under the same parameters with any sort of reliablity without it. I have hundreds of dyno pulls to prove it and these guys have results at the track.

This spring I wil do some more testing on a different car, to show what water and pump gas can really do.

With extensive dyno testing I have found that water is good for up to 40 wheel hp when it is being tuned for maximum power. When tuned for bomb proof reliabilty, it is about a negative 18 wheel hp loss but it is almost imposible to hurt the motor under these conditions. This is worst case rich mixture, low timing, maximum water flow.

We tested this road racing at Buttonwillow raceway 2 years ago. It was 100 degrees and this was on a road racing corse where you are on it way longer than any drag race. A stock SE-R will overhaet under these condition.

Monitoring coolant temp closely with Consult the water temp never exceeded 96 degrees C. This is with a stock radiator and no underdrive water pump pulley. A turbo SE-R will explode under these condtions with no water injecton within 5 minutes.

As it was we lapped the whole field and on one lap passed 7 mustangs, vetts, camaros and porshes going down the front straight in front of many witnesses. People were amazed that a 200SX could do this.

Water injection was the only thing that made this posible.

Anytime an engine is being run near the detonation limit like it alway is when turboed with 9.5:1 compression on pump gas, water can get you more power. On water I can lean out the mixture by 0.1 a/f ratio and run four more degrees advance safely. Egts drop by about 200 degrees when tuned to get more power, even on oxygenated fuel.

As far as big injectors, sure you can put 820cc injectors on your car and drive down the street, you can drive a lot of stuff down the street, but idle will be worse as you can only limit pulse duration so much. aThe idle is not glass smooth, sure it is streetable to some people but the idle will be rougher.

As far as just throwing more fuel to stop detonation, richening the mixture will help until you reach around 10:1, then additional fuel drasticaly increses the propensity to detonate. Putting in big injectors when there is no fuel demand does exactly noting except deterorate low speed light throttle driveabilty.

Below 12.5:1 or so adding fuel begins to seriously reduce power. Just adding fuel does not solve all tuning issues unless you have a diesel!

As far as the relaiblity of the system, the aquamist system is oem spec for bently, the ford sierra cosworth and is run by every pro-rally team in europe.

All of the units I personaly know of in use have exactly zero problems after a sum total of over a hundred thousand accumulated miles.

As far as top racing not running water injection, water injection was popularised by the late great turbo formula F-1 cars, the ones that made over 1500 hp from 1500cc's, the most advanced IC engines ever made. The Honda ran brake Specific fuel consumption numbers in the 0.35 range! How did they do this? One of the reasons was water injection.

The highest boosting turbo engines running, the three and 4 stage turbo systems in tractor pull tractors that are running over 120 psi use water injection in between each stage.

All of the WRC rally cars now use the Aquamist system.

Some of you are not stating the correct facts about water injection in motorsports.

If I was building a quick class racer, I would use water in that to improve reliabilty. If I ever get around to building mine, I will.

It is not wise to critisize something that you have not tried, so I challange the naysayers that have not run water. Beat my results without it! Make more than 296 hp on pump gas on a bone stock high compression SR20 motor without it blowing.

Beat the relaiblity record of the cars that run the turbo systems I speced and helped tune. Once you do, consistantly then you can make a judgement on the water system.

It is more the water injection than anything I do. Ask Jay H.

Mike
 

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Mike,

Does SCC plan on doing an install article for water injection? I understand it's benefits, but really don't have the first clue of how to hook one up if I bought one.

Thanks

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Ben98SentraSE
98 Sentra SE TURBO
 

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<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Ben98SentraSE:
Mike,

Does SCC plan on doing an install article for water injection? I understand it's benefits, but really don't have the first clue of how to hook one up if I bought one.

Thanks

</font>
Easy as pie if you have a JWT ECU with water control.

Tap/thread the IC pipe, insert jet, drill hole in bottom of washer tank. Mount pump near washer tank, and insert feed line into washer tank, seal with silicone. Run line to jet, wire up the pump.

That's about it.
 

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I remember reading about a company that makes a computer controlled unit out of Australia that taps into certain sensors that will do all of the work for you. iirc it runs like 150 au dollars. probably better off getting the jwt ecu redone. you can even tune it yourself at certain timing points, detonation threashold, ect, ect.

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98 se-r w/ p/r cai,jwt s3 cams, stillen header, courtesy exhaust, ur pullies, JUN flywheel, ACT clutch, NOS nitrous kit, eibach springs, kyb struts, st sways, cusco camber plates, f/r strut braces,stillen lower control arm brace, lotsa bushings, and a bunch of other crap
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by brian:
I remember reading about a company that makes a computer controlled unit out of Australia that taps into certain sensors that will do all of the work for you. iirc it runs like 150 au dollars. probably better off getting the jwt ecu redone. you can even tune it yourself at certain timing points, detonation threashold, ect, ect.

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The aquamist system has the option of being controled by its own ecu so you can 3D map it just like a stand alone. The optinal controler has a PWM solenoid just like an injector right after the pump.

I just did it via the JWT ecu so there would be one less box under the hood to find a place for.

Most of the rally cars do it through there own ECU also. They usualy run two pumps and up to 4 nozzles. The Focus runs up to 30% of the total injected fluid volume as water!

It is nuts, the rally cars run as lean as 13.5:1 and six to 10 degrees more advanced with water.

Thats how I found out about Aquamist, by reading about the rallycars in Racecar Engineering, a really good magazine if you ever have seen it.

I was one of the first guys to use it in the USA I think. I used to think water injection was stupid intil I first used Aquamist.

My prior experance was with Spearco and Edlebrock both of which are doodoo and don't work very well.

It amazes me that people who never have had any exposure to, and never have tried something new can have such a strong opinion about it and can speak with such authority negatively about it.

Mike
 

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Talk about beating a dead horse. Jay stoped it now you start it ok I'll stop it for mike since his isn't near a computer any more.

Wow I see the mistake How could I have been so blind! U guyz are right I was wrong. I hope one day we can be friends.
 

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<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Yellow4g63:

Wow I see the mistake How could I have been so blind! U guyz are right I was wrong. I hope one day we can be friends.
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It's not personal, don't act like you're hurt. This is about fact and automotive engineering principles. It has nothing to do with feelings or personal issues.

Rob
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Yellow4g63:
Talk about beating a dead horse. Jay stoped it now you start it ok I'll stop it for mike since his isn't near a computer any more.

Wow I see the mistake How could I have been so blind! U guyz are right I was wrong. I hope one day we can be friends.
</font>
I am having problems with my DSL line and I thought my replys to anything were not going through so I tried to repost under a new topic, then my original post did indeed come through. Sorry for the double post. About half of my replies to anything on this forum disaper off to nowhere. Earthlink DSL sucks, and their customer service sucks.

I have lots of trouble on the se-r.net chat room also.

Mike
 
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