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Discussion Starter #1
Most people swear by water injection but you know what?
Water injection sounds great at first, but as compared to intercooling, it's not much of an issue.
Water injection runs out... If you're hard on it and it runs out you're in deep trouble, intercoolings always there.
Water injection has to be maintained. Injectors clogging, contaminated water, etc. etc is no fun to deal with.
Water injection dilutes the mixture... It actually removes part of the air fuel mixture to be in there, so you're losing hp as you're trying to gain it.
etc. etc. etc.

As you can tell, I'm not much of a fan of water injection. I like to build engines that last, and you don't have to fool with them all the time. Just put gas in and go

Mike.

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Can't you run both water injection and an intercooler?

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Ryan 97 Black SER
advanced timing,custom 2.5" catback exhaust with dynomax super turbo muffler, Unorthodox Racing Pulleys, ES shifter Bushing, Hotshot Header(not installed), Hotshot CAI (waiting for patiently)
 

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I understand completely with what you are saying Mike. It has been suggested to both Ben Benavides and Myself over and over agin by Mike Kojima. Niether Ben nor I are fully sold on the idea of Water Injection. I am familiar with the theory behind water injection, but when it comes down to it; if your car can't run reliable boost without it, then it isn't worth using it. A car should be tuned well enough to run considerable amounts of boosts while not using H2O. Whether it be by using larger injectors(which is what most of us do), using a larger Front mount intercooler, or adding higher octane fuel, that is the way you should be able to crank up the boost, not by trying to take away latent heat within the cylinder to try and squeeze out a few more PSI. I have not come to the point where I have run out of injector nor have I come to the point where I can't run a significant amount of boost on 92 octane fuel(21 psi)where I would need water injection. Some people swear by it; I feel you should be able to have a well working turbo system without it.

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Louis Anaya 1992 Sentra SE-R
13.6 @ 111 mph, Bluebird SR20DET w/ GTiR Pistons,T3/T04E,Deltagate Wastegate (9 PSI) FMAX Manifold, RevHard FMIC, JWT S3 Cams, JWT Ported & Polished Head, 1996 200SX SE-R Welded & Cyro Treated Tranny, ACT Xtreme P/PL & 6 Puck Disc, Cobra MAF, JWT ECU w/ 4 Bar Fuel Program, MSD 50lb/hr Injectors, JWT Fuel Rail, 300ZXTT Fuel Pump, AeroMotive Adjustable Fuel Pressure Regulator, Greddy Type "R" BOV, Greddy Profec B, Greddy Boost & EGT Guages, UR 4 Pulley Kit, Powerslot Rotors, Axxis MM Brake Pads, ES Motor Mounts, Topspeed Short Shifter, Momo Cobra Shift Knob, KYB AGX Struts, GC Coilovers (350F/600R)& 17x7 White Tenzo Shu-4's w/ Kuhmo 205/40/ZR17 Tires
 

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BOOSTIN PROTECH STYLE
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Discussion Starter #5
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by APEXSER:
[B Some people swear by it; I feel you should be able to have a well working turbo system without it.

[/B]</font>
Nice point Louis, The point I made about not using an intercooler was just an Idea that some have come up with. But the point was, not about using an intercooler, yet about how you lose Hp when trying to make it.

Mike Collins USN.

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24x8x4 intercooler on a 60trim .82 T3/T4 turbo, 50lb msd's, 300zx TT fuel pump, JWT rail, and JWT ECU.

I run 12psi and 110mph traps speeds without water and pump gas.

I run up to 18psi on pump gas with a 1mm water jet and 117+mph traps speeds.

Case closed.

To address the first post:

1.I use *maybe* two quarts of water in a months time. It's tapped into my washer resevoir so I get a low fluid light if it ever gets that low.

2.The jets never clog. No more than an injector which would have the same catstrophic effect.

3. Water does take up "volume" but it also pulls a lot of heat from the air charge allowing a more dense mixture to hit the combustion chamber.


Water injection is great for those of us runing high compression, and/or cast pistons. You ever see what happens to a motor (Even a well built one) at 20psi when even light in audible detonation hits?

My compression is still 182 across the board, and my bores look better than they did before the turbo went on.

This is what water does for the overall cylinder pressure.


Not only does it smooth out cylinder pressure but it broadens the combustion cycle as the water turns to steam.

I will never ever ever ever run a car without it again. Even a well built forge piston 8:1 motor. It just adds such a nice saftey cushion for your pistons and head gaskets.

Your opinion is your opinion, but look to the resutls and facts before you say something is "****".

When more than 400whp can be had with an internally stock 2.0 motor (that is beat on HARD all the time) can be had with water injection. I'd say it works. When another 392whp car has over 100,000 miles on it after being flogged like hell is another testament to the affectiveness and saftey added.

No amount of tuning would allow us stock DE guys to make that power without the water.

It has it's place.
 

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Discussion Starter #8
Uh You can get the same results with adding more fuel
Water may seem like a saftey cusion, but if you get bigger injectors you can pull of the same thing with out losing any HP. So I say again Water delutes the air fuel mixture in your engine causing you to LOSE HP.

Mike Collins USN.
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Discussion Starter #9
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Jay Hass:
24x8x4 intercooler on a 60trim .82 T3/T4 turbo, 50lb msd's, 300zx TT fuel pump, JWT rail, and JWT ECU.

I run 12psi and 110mph traps speeds without water and pump gas.

I run up to 18psi on pump gas with a 1mm water jet and 117+mph traps speeds.

Case closed.


</font>

You can get the same results if you get rid of those 50lb injectors and add more fuel I've seen it done. Second I never said water injection is **** ur taking my post out of context but that seems to happen a lot on this list. You can get bigger Injectors and lean them out Oh wait your running JWT set up Sorry that wont work for you, but for the speedpro guys and stand alone guys It will work for you
. So I say again I never said water injection is ****. I just said when you add water to a motor it delutes the air fuel mixture causing you to lose hp while you are trying to make it. If you add more fuel and lean it out You wont lose any hp and you can run more boost.

Case Closed


Mike Collins USN
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<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by PSSSHHHGOESMYSR20:

You can get the same results if you get rid of those 50lb injectors and add more fuel I've seen it done. Second I never said water injection is **** ur taking my post out of context but that seems to happen a lot on this list. You can get bigger Injectors and lean them out Oh wait your running JWT set up Sorry that wont work for you, but for the speedpro guys and stand alone guys It will work for you
. So I say again I never said water injection is ****. I just said when you add water to a motor it delutes the air fuel mixture causing you to lose hp while you are trying to make it. If you add more fuel and lean it out You wont lose any hp and you can run more boost.

Case Closed


Mike Collins USN
Turbo Classic
</font>
Mike that makes absolutely NO sense.

1. My 50lb injectors are NOT maxed. Not even close. In fact I'm running about 10psi less fuel pressure than the 4bar because it's set up too fat.

2. Fuel dumping does not do the same thing as water injection. In fact too much fuel can bring on detonation and cause other unhealthy problems.

3. How the heck do you *add fuel* and *lean out?* That makes no sense. You said: "If you add more fuel and lean it out"


You can not argue with the facts and results. You _can_ _not_ get the same power out of a stock DE without the water that you can with the water. It can't be done.

Don't you think Mike Kojima tried all he could to get the most out of pump gas and no water? Talking to him on the phone it seems that he did. Unless you know something that a Nissan Engineer/11 year factory IMSA team engineer does.

In very cold weather I can run *maybe* 14psi without the water and a FAT tune on pump gas.

You can't agrue with the results. Period.

Pump Gas w/ No water = 12psi and 110-111mph trap speed
Pump Gas w/ Water = 18psi and 117+mph traps speeds.

Sorry dude, but your wrong. You have your opinion but no data to back it up, and it is well just an opinion.

Plus you said in your first post you like "engines that last, and you don't have to fiddle with, just put gas in and go" then why the hell are you bashing JWT and talking about using a speed density stand alone? Those are *not* plug and play systems. Not even close. Your tune changes with the weather.

Jamie ran a *plug and play* JWT ECU and blew off a 10.0 run on a home built car. How close are you to that? I'd say that's something you don't have to "fiddle with"

Also engines that last...Ryans' STOCK DE has over 100,000 hard MFin miles on it run lean, run fat, detonated, experimented with, flogged by magazines etc etc and still going strong.

What else do you need to see?

Take that as you may.


[This message has been edited by Jay Hass (edited 02-11-2001).]
 

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Discussion Starter #11
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Jay Hass:
Mike that makes absolutely NO sense.

1. My 50lb injectors are NOT maxed. Not even close. In fact I'm running about 10psi less fuel pressure than the 4bar because it's set up too fat.

2. Fuel dumping does not do the same thing as water injection. In fact too much fuel can bring on detonation and cause other unhealthy problems.

3. How the heck do you *add fuel* and *lean out?* That makes no sense. You said: "If you add more fuel and lean it out"


You can not argue with the facts and results. You _can_ _not_ get the same power out of a stock DE without the water that you can with the water. It can't be done.

Don't you think Mike Kojima tried all he could to get the most out of pump gas and no water? Talking to him on the phone it seems that he did. Unless you know something that a Nissan Engineer/11 year factory IMSA team engineer does.

In very cold weather I can run *maybe* 14psi without the water and a FAT tune on pump gas.

You can't agrue with the results. Period.

Pump Gas w/ No water = 12psi and 110-111mph trap speed
Pump Gas w/ Water = 18psi and 117+mph traps speeds.

Sorry dude, but your wrong. You have your opinion but no data to back it up, and it is well just an opinion.

Plus you said in your first post you like "engines that last, and you don't have to fiddle with, just put gas in and go" then why the hell are you bashing JWT and talking about using a speed density stand alone? Those are *not* plug and play systems. Not even close. Your tune changes with the weather.

Jamie ran a *plug and play* JWT ECU and blew off a 10.0 run on a home built car. How close are you to that? I'd say that's something you don't have to "fiddle with"

Also engines that last...Ryans' STOCK DE has over 100,000 hard MFin miles on it run lean, run fat, detonated, experimented with, flogged by magazines etc etc and still going strong.

What else do you need to see?

Take that as you may.


[This message has been edited by Jay Hass (edited 02-11-2001).]
</font>
When I said add more fuel I ment Get 720cc+ then Lean them out to where you are not running Rich nor are you running lean. Im not bashing JWT Im just saying that You get more tunability with a stand alone ECU then you ever will with a JWT Set up. As far as Tuning with the weather change Im sorry dude but Thats not correct I know guys making over 460 hp to the wheels with out ever having a problem with the retuning due to the weather. I did say I like to put gas in and go well guess what, you take a motor run it on the dyno and tune it with a stand alone, you wont ever have to touch it again, unless you add something different or want to try different settings.
I respect your opinion about water injection you claim it's proven, I've seen the charts. So you are probably asking yourself why do I keep talking about it? Well simple, I've seen a lot of fast cars out here in California street and strip, and you know what None of them USE water injection to do it. 2 None of them use a piggy back system .
**** show me some japan cars that use water injection? I hope that explains my stand point. I believe what I believe cause I like to be different and it will work, matter of fact Im betting my car on it. We soon shall see this coming year.

Mike Collins USN
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<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">When I said add more fuel I ment Get 720cc+ then Lean them out to where you are not running Rich nor are you running lean. </font>
If you are running a certain air/fuel ratio with the 50 lb/hr injectors, how does stepping up to larger injectors but running at the same air/fuel ratio change anything???

[This message has been edited by jacen99SE (edited 02-11-2001).]
 

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Discussion Starter #13
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by jacen99SE:
If you are running a certain air/fuel ratio with the 50 lb/hr injectors, how does stepping up to larger injectors but running at the same air/fuel ratio change anything???

[This message has been edited by jacen99SE (edited 02-11-2001).]
By running bigger injector it will enable you to run more boost. Fuel also Cools the intake core like water but does not delute the air/fuel mixture
inside the engine. If you use bigger injectors you dont lean them out to the fact they are just like the 500cc MSDs, You just lean them out to where you can run the amount of boost desired with out detonation occuring, and with out Running too lean or rich. Also you mentioned stoich, Remember this if you use an Air/fuel Gauge to tune your car it is only good for first and second gear, you will need an EGT Gauge to help aid in the tuning of your car for 3-5 gear. Just keep the EGTs below 900.

Mike Collins USN.
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more fuel does not always mean more power. you can run your car too rich and loose more power. if you run your car with too much fuel, you will not be running a good a/f ratio, and wasting alot of gas, and power. like jay said, water injection is not a cure all, just a cushion. it more or less chemichaly cools the cylinders, not physically, like an intercooler. it will also turn into steam, witch will almost act like more air in the cylinder also, causing the car to go into more boost. I think you are arguing your point to a guy that knows his **** more than just about anybody else on the bb. why would some companies make water injection kits, instead of just giving the customer bigger injectors and making it run pig rich? water injection is a proven way to safely squeeze a little (or alot) more power out of your engine

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98 se-r w/ p/r cai,jwt s3 cams, stillen header, courtesy exhaust, ur pullies, JUN flywheel, ACT clutch, NOS nitrous kit, eibach springs, kyb struts, st sways, cusco camber plates, f/r strut braces, lotsa bushings, and a bunch of other crap not really worth mentioning
 

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<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by PSSSHHHGOESMYSR20: When I said add more fuel I ment Get 720cc+ then Lean them out to where you are not running Rich nor are you running lean.</font>
That still doesn't make any sense. In fact it's just the opposite. For low rpm performance and streetability you want to run the smallest injector you can get away with.

The car has no idea if 1 part fuel to 12 parts air is coming from a 720cc or a 270cc unit. All it knows is the target A/F ratio has been hit.


<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Im not bashing JWT Im just saying that You get more tunability with a stand alone ECU then you ever will with a JWT Set up.</font>
You also get more things to screw up. It's not easy to tune a motor with a stand alone you know. At Pruven Performance we spent countless hours on the dyno to take a car from 450whp to 511whp. A LOT of time. If the guy was paying for dyno time, the bill would have been outrageous but he owned the dyno.



<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">As far as Tuning with the weather change Im sorry dude but Thats not correct I know guys making over 460 hp to the wheels with out ever having a problem with the retuning due to the weather. I did say I like to put gas in and go well guess what, you take a motor run it on the dyno and tune it with a stand alone, you wont ever have to touch it again, unless you add something different or want to try different settings. </font>
Dare I say you have not been around very many stand alone systems. I can *guarantee* you that the guys who made 460hp on the dyno with a barometric pressure of 31 are NOT making that same power at 29inches.

They use MAP sensors. MAP sensors can not detect the Mass of air. If the barometric pressure drops or rises due to weather or elevation changes you have to tweak your program.

My good friends (And some of the fastest in country) use Haltech stand alones and they make God awful power.(530 wheel hp street DSM) However they will be the first to tell you that the lap top rides along.

NHRA Racers using MOTEC systems bring multiple programs tailored to individual tracks and weather conditions with them.

Will a stand alone work without tweaking? Yes. Will it be in optimal tune? No. And a stock cast piston motor pushed to the limit without an optimal tune is risking a blown something.


<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">I respect your opinion about water injection you claim it's proven, I've seen the charts. So you are probably asking yourself why do I keep talking about it? Well simple, I've seen a lot of fast cars out here in California street and strip, and you know what None of them USE water injection to do it.</font>
And a lot of cars blow up too. Just because a lot of people are not using it doesn't mean it's not good. Come on! I guess in that sense the SE-R is not as capable as a Honda because the Honda's are tearing up the drag strip and no SE-R has touched it yet.

It's very possible to *build* read that again...*build* a motor to live under gobs of boost on pump fuel. ****, I've had a hand in a 1000hp small block Chevy on 92 octane piss water! I know first hand.

But the water provides a nice level of *saftey* and for some the ability to make a LOT more power.


<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">2 None of them use a piggy back system .
</font>
I hope your not saying JWT is a piggy back?

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">**** show me some japan cars that use water injection?</font>
Many Group A ralley cars come factory with water injection. In fact it's the same system I'm using by ERL.

Do you think that the guys who run 30+psi for hours on end, in grueling conditions and have countless $$$ factory support might just see something in the water?

I understand your point, and if you don't want to run it but all means don't run it. But IMO it's like someone saying, "here's a lifetime supply of 116 octane race gas. Use all you want." And you say "Nahhhh, I just want to make it run on 92 pee water, I don't believe that race gas is all that"

It just doesn't make sense.



[This message has been edited by Jay Hass (edited 02-12-2001).]
 

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Discussion Starter #16
You know what this thread can go on for ever, so let me just say this, Yes, JWT is a piggy back system they solder a daughter board onto your ECU. Two, I know Many street cars running 720-830 CC injectors that are perfectly streetable. Three, I much rather Have a Lap top ride shotgun then have no clue whats going on with my engine, a lot of people put their trust in the tuning capabilities of JWT, their is nothing wrong with that I believe JWT is a good tuner, but I like the hands on experience
. Your right it's my option if I want to run water or not, but I just wanted to make the point that Water is not all its cracked up to be. It's like that argument about Superchargers Vs Turbo we can go on all day long with whats wrong with each system but I'd rather not.

Mike Collins USN.
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720-830 cc injectors in a supra or rx7 maybe. streetable in a 4banger, probably not. I personally would stay with a JWT computer instead of a standalone b/c you are going to have to tune it all the time, most standalone computers need a map, not a maf, and JWT has been tuning Nissan ecus for over 10 years, almost 20, why not get something you know is going to work, instead of trying something out (not sure of your tuning abilities of a standalone) but I have a few buddies with them in their subarus (map), and I would not mess with them too much trouble for what you pay for. $500 and you are done. Motec, Accel dfi, Haltech, all run 1k + dyno time+ install, so you might as well say 4x the price of a JWT ecu that does it all. sorry enough babbling, back to water injection


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98 se-r w/ p/r cai,jwt s3 cams, stillen header, courtesy exhaust, ur pullies, JUN flywheel, ACT clutch, NOS nitrous kit, eibach springs, kyb struts, st sways, cusco camber plates, f/r strut braces, lotsa bushings, and a bunch of other crap not really worth mentioning
 

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Discussion Starter #18
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by brian:
720-830 cc injectors in a supra or rx7 maybe. streetable in a 4banger, probably not. I personally would stay with a JWT computer instead of a standalone b/c you are going to have to tune it all the time, most standalone computers need a map, not a maf, and JWT has been tuning Nissan ecus for over 10 years, almost 20, why not get something you know is going to work, instead of trying something out (not sure of your tuning abilities of a standalone) but I have a few buddies with them in their subarus (map), and I would not mess with them too much trouble for what you pay for. $500 and you are done. Motec, Accel dfi, Haltech, all run 1k + dyno time+ install, so you might as well say 4x the price of a JWT ecu that does it all. sorry enough babbling, back to water injection


</font>
LMAO I don't know whether to laugh or to cry. Ignorance is bliss


[This message has been edited by PSSSHHHGOESMYSR20 (edited 02-13-2001).]

[This message has been edited by PSSSHHHGOESMYSR20 (edited 02-13-2001).]
 

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Ok time to beat a dead horse. If you don't like to tinker with your car, if you want to just plug it in an go play then JWT n Water is the way to go. If you want to stand up and march into the Fog then go with the After market computers. 660cc-720cc-820cc can be used on a street car, U just have to be able to control it. I'm think about goin to 720cc when I get into some money, Why??? cause I want to run 20+ pounds of boost an not worry about my EGT's. U know what I mean 5th gear runs on the FWY. "How r u goin to get your car to IDel? how you goin to control it?" Well sine I have a DSM I use the "Magic Box" (SAFC) EGT,and Volt meter to keep tabs an tune. I am goin to go with a Haltech later on, I want to make the most I can with my car. Diffrent strokes for diffrent folks. If everyone did one thing alone and not dear to go to the unknown where would we be today?

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<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by PSSSHHHGOESMYSR20:
You know what this thread can go on for ever, so let me just say this, Yes, JWT is a piggy back system they solder a daughter board onto your ECU.</font>
Um, no they don't. Not on the OBD-II cars anyway. Besides do you know why they put a daughter board on there? It's not "in addition too" the stock ECU, it's so you can swap out chips in OBD-I cars and/or run a daughterboard for a second program for nitrous/water/race fuel program ect etc. I know of a JWT ECU that has *6* selectable programs to choose from depending on what you want. Nitrous spool, nitrous in additions too, optimized for race fuel, optimized for pump gas, water, no water etc etc.

That's pretty cool in my book.

Besides how many JWT cars have blown up? ZERO. How many stand alone cars have blown up? Lots. Not to say a stand alone is bad, but you better know what you are doing.

You get all the factory drivability, error correction, and it's ability to change with conditions but with a new tune.

A piggy back overrides the factory settings, and fights the ECU.

Once again, you are mistaken and don't have all the facts.

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Two, I know Many street cars running 720-830 CC injectors that are perfectly streetable.</font>
LOL, yea okay. Fire one up on a cold morning, or get stuck in traffic for an hour and see what happens. Fouled plugs are the least of your worries.

I guess "streetable" to you is it runs and drives down the street, must be "streetable".

No, you never see DSM's with 720's having an idle that goes bwaaab.b.bwaaaaab.b.bwaaaaaab.b.bwaaaaa


<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Three, I much rather Have a Lap top ride shotgun then have no clue whats going on with my engine,</font>
Uh dude, I know exactly what is going on inside my engine every second that I'm driving. Not only do I have the OBD-II scan software, I have a Horiba at my disposal and a bung welded on the downpipe. You would be surprised at just how well tuned this JWT ECU is.

This is just one of many screen of data I can log at any given time with the car:


<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Your right it's my option if I want to run water or not, but I just wanted to make the point that Water is not all its cracked up to be. It's like that argument about Superchargers Vs Turbo we can go on all day long with whats wrong with each system but I'd rather not.
</font>

Fair enough, but I do take to task when you say "it's not all it's cracked up to be".

I think if you examine the facts, see who is using it, what power they are making, what kind of reliability they have it's safe to say that "water is pretty damn cool"

I mean gaining 75-100hp on my car just by using the water and nothing else is pretty friggin impressive.
 
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