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Master Cunnilingust
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4,713 Posts
Discussion Starter #1
We all know that other than the Hypercoils, nobody makes a non-coilover spring for our cars that's worth a damn. They all drop too much and don't have spring rates capable of keeping the car off the bumpstops at any drop. I'm seriously wondering why this is? I mean, other than ignorant consumers (which apparently there must be enough of), who the hell would buy this junk? What blows my mind is that companies that should know better, like Progress, H&R, Eibach, etc. still make this junk. Some of them make great stuff and make other springs that work fine, mostly because we request the proper rates. I mean, what kind of R&D are they doing that they think you can drop a B13 sentra 1.7" and not have the wheel damn near, if not, rubbing on the wheel well liner? And then the spring rates are supposed to keep the car off the bumpstops? Maybe while it's setting still. I don't understand it.
 

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8,886 Posts
I wonder the same thing myself. I think the problem lies with the fact that the stock Sentra has such bad front travel stock. There is no simple work around. You have to have short struts. From a marketing point of view this does not work. So people make the product simply because the demand exist.
 

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Grandma's gonna get ya!
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1,871 Posts
Are you using stock struts or something? The only time that I see a Sentra with Eibachs handle and ride like crap is when the car has stock struts (which blow immediately when they're mated with lowering springs). Back in 98, my classic handled and rode beautifully with Evolution Motorsports 2" drop springs and KYB GR2's. It rode real tight and wouldn't bottom out and stuck corners like a bat out of hell. My buddy had Eibach Sportlines with AGX's and his classic rode sweet as well. I guess I'm wondering what a $150-$250 set of lowering springs is supposed to offer other than what they do?
 

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Hostile Aberration
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4,820 Posts
Great question. I'm a mechanically clueless noob :tongue: , unlike both of you (Toolapcfan and 98sr20ve), but I wondered the same thing as well. Even talked to a couple of "sales advisors" at some large mail-order companies and they defended their spring choices available. "But all of our customers are happy with their such-and-such springs."

Happy with crappy handling and a rice-drop I guess :rolleyes: . I would think the big manufacturers would be embarrassed (even mortified) to put out a spring that doesn't work for the application :squint: .

Mechanically clueless indeed, but I was reading about shortened struts for B-13's way back when Shocktek (no longer in business) was building them.

That's why I'm e-mailing Steve in January or February for some Koni's to team up with the Hypercoils that are sitting on my stairs :D .
 

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SR20VE or a T28? I dunno!
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1,664 Posts
We just need a good, cost-effective shortened adjustable strut/shock...
 

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Master Cunnilingust
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4,713 Posts
Discussion Starter #6 (Edited)
coalitionSE-L said:
Are you using stock struts or something? The only time that I see a Sentra with Eibachs handle and ride like crap is when the car has stock struts (which blow immediately when they're mated with lowering springs). Back in 98, my classic handled and rode beautifully with Evolution Motorsports 2" drop springs and KYB GR2's. It rode real tight and wouldn't bottom out and stuck corners like a bat out of hell. My buddy had Eibach Sportlines with AGX's and his classic rode sweet as well. I guess I'm wondering what a $150-$250 set of lowering springs is supposed to offer other than what they do?
I've never used a set of aftermarket non-coilover springs because they all suck. And GR2's are a stock replacement, so I highly doubt they were the reason the struts didn't blow. First of all, any drop over 1" is asking for trouble unless you have a shortenend strut, so regardless who makes the springs and regardless what spring rates they are, a drop over 1" using a stock traveling strut is going to be a bad thing. Secondly, none of the springs out there have spring rates capable of handling ANY drop in ride height, because that results in less travel and the rates won't keep the car off the bumpstops. So what a drop spring should do, for any amount of money, should be to not drop the car more than is considered safe with stock strut travel and the spring rate should be high enough to keep the car off the bumpstops most of the time. So even if a set of springs were free, they're too expensive if they don't do either of those two things, because they're going to inevitably ruin the struts or cause bumpsteer in which case a person could be seriously injured or killed.
 

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Master Cunnilingust
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4,713 Posts
Discussion Starter #7
98SERwTricks said:
We just need a good, cost-effective shortened adjustable strut/shock...
I'd say that Koni inserts are going to be the only thing that meets that requirement. Truly, if a person is going to replace their struts with anything at all, I'd say that Koni's are the only thing on the market that are worth spending money on. My understanding is that for the price of AGX's, the Koni's are easily obtainable for a little more and be a much better value for the money. I'd like to think for the B13 at least, that the Progress coilovers are going to be the best for the money since they're going to provide so much more travel over stock. But I'm not willing to make that determination yet because I've never driven on Koni's and I've not driven on the Progress long enough to have an opinion of them.
 

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Professor Dingbat
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5,543 Posts
I think it's becuase large companies like eibach are too big to be involved with specific communities as small as ours. Hondas have enough travel that they can drop it 2 inches and not run out of bump travel, even with a spring rate thats only slightly higher than stock. We obvisouly can't get away with it, but I doubt they do any sort of real development, if they did, we wouldn't have these rice spring kits bouncing around the streets. About the sales reps telling you how great they are, well one must be aware that the people who write the marketing literature probably have no idea about springs are or what separates a good spring from a poor spring. I never beleive any product description I read or hear.

Not only that, but if companies made springs where buying shocks is necessary, they probably wouldn't make as much money as if they can market their springs as compatible with stock dampers, all you have to buy is the spring kit. In order to make a spring for a B13 that is soft enough to be used with a stock damper, the drop would be so small, it wouldnt even be noticeable, and nobody would buy it.

Not to mention most people who are buying aftermarket parts just want to 'hook up their ride'. All the guys at home are like "man, the lower the car is the better, when i save some money, my ride will be hooked up and everyone will be giving me mad props....whenever they see me coming, they will be like 'whoa man, thats insert rice name here' ". So basically most people aren't smart enough to realize what is required to have a suspension that works better than stock.

I think we take for granted that this community is as educated and mature as it is. I think the fact that no SR20 powered car was ever 'cool' like hondas are keeps the ricers away.
 

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merely a flesh wound
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15,281 Posts
The reason the Hyperco's are so good is that they spent a shitload of engineering time on them. The B13 chassis is a tough one to design for and they actually engineered a spring for it using suggestions from real people here on the forum. It wasn't easy getting the drop that we wanted, while staying with a high rate spring, AND keeping the spring long enough so it wouldn't unseat at full suspension droop. There was allot of back and forth discussions with Hyperco.... it would have been allot easier for them to either reduce the rate, or make more of a drop. But in the end they were able to come up with the right combination of wire diameter, tensile strength, number of turns etc.

I'd bet dollars to donuts that for the most part, the majority of aftermarket spring manufacturers just plug in the numbers for most cars and pop out a spring without going through any significant real world testing.

The other thing you need to realize is that Hyperco was basically given a mandate by us to make a 300/200 spring that would work with AGX's or better. What that means is that they didn't need to try and make something that would ride soft and more importantly, wouldn't need to work with stock struts.

Props to Hyperco for doing such a kickass job on the B13 spring.

C:\>
 

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Hostile Aberration
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4,820 Posts
My thanks goes to Hypercoil and whomever (whoever?) from this forum got together with Hypercoil to make it happen :biggthump .

My suspension is almost together (60 days or so :D ) and it includes both Hyperco's and Steves shortened Koni's. Every other part to the suspension has been researched and selected from information gleaned from this forum.

The coolest part is, I KNOW the suspension is going to be bad-ass. No question about it.

Last, to actually get back to the topic at hand...(did not mean to thread jack :tongue: )....

I agree with Chris, the large manufacturers OBVIOUSLY did not do any testing with their springs. They are not stupid people. In fact, I am sure that Eibach has some damn good people teamed up with real good machines. Perhaps they plugged in some numbers and spit out a spring. I don't know, but I sure as hell know they DID NOT test them in the real world on a B-13.

If they had actually tested, they would have come to the same conclusion as you suspension gurus here on the forum. The current crop of Eibach, H & R, whatever, that are commercially available all suck. End of story. They didn't test the product, they put out a "guess-timate" spring which obviously works just fine in most applications....and they produced a peice of crap.

I think it is deplorable, an absolute disgrace. Raise the damn price of the product a bit and TEST the damn things on the cars for which they are designed.

Just my .04 cents ;) .
 

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i love b13's !
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8,012 Posts
nicely said. i didnt mind buying springs (hypercoils) that basically called for a upgrade in struts (going to agxs). basically cause i wanted a good ride and have ridden and seen enough hondas that have pogo sticks for suspension to know i wanted a good suspension. i havent installed it all yet (need es bushings) :rolleyes: but when i do im sure ill be pleased. i read enough threads and posts and spoke to a bunch of people about the items a purchased to be pretty confident to buy them.
 

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sleeper
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5,445 Posts
Shawn B said:
I agree with Chris, the large manufacturers OBVIOUSLY did not do any testing with their springs. They are not stupid people. In fact, I am sure that Eibach has some damn good people teamed up with real good machines. Perhaps they plugged in some numbers and spit out a spring.
What does the majority of the "tuner" market want? A lowered car. The spring companies are simply making a product to meet that demand. So they design a spring that will drop a car around 2" and stiffen up the spring rates a little bit to make it "handle better". But of course, they can't go too stiff on the spring rates or the stock dampers wouldn't be able to handle them.

We just have a higher standard for performance on this forum :)
 

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Hostile Aberration
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4,820 Posts
Oh...****, I totally forgot that if your car is lowered a couple of inches it automatically makes it handle great ;) . I also heard you could just cut the OEM springs for a really cool drop of say 3-4 inches. Then you'd be slammed and pimpin' :rolleyes: .

"They ought to be ashamed of themselves..." is what my mom would say to the major manufacturers (take your pick) of "performance" lowering springs for B-13's. They collectively all produced a bad product, one that has the potential for disaster. Like bottoming out your suspension, losing control and ending up in a ditch.

And I do love the higher performance standards on this site :D . Now, where can I get me some of that neon that goes under my car....
 

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Proud Italian
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1,779 Posts
well im more confused as ever..lol but i would like to do an occasional solo event and some back road carving. But ill either have to wait on the next hyperco gb or just keep working over time and go with som progess or teins. Us poor folk got to save for these things..lol. I have a house, wife kids and car payments so 1200 dollar coilover kits take some time. Im kinda new on here can anyone point me in steves direction on how to get the shortened konis if i go the spring/strut way?
 

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8,886 Posts
b13magoo said:
well im more confused as ever..lol but i would like to do an occasional solo event and some back road carving. But ill either have to wait on the next hyperco gb or just keep working over time and go with som progess or teins. Us poor folk got to save for these things..lol. I have a house, wife kids and car payments so 1200 dollar coilover kits take some time. Im kinda new on here can anyone point me in steves direction on how to get the shortened konis if i go the spring/strut way?
Just send me a PM and we can talk. Include a phone number.
 

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Red line chaser
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2,040 Posts
97SE-R C2 said:
Because the mass of people just want the drop. Thats it. Believe it or not, we here at SR20 forum only make up a small porion of the nissan world. To boot, over 50% of the people here OWN shotty springs.
Bingo. When I upgraded my suspension the first time with my 200, I valued performance highly, but the main reason for the choice in suspension components (GAB's w/ Eibachs) was to get "the look". This was back in '97, when these trick shortened coil-over systems existed for our cars. Now, a lot of people just want that slammed look first, then worry about ride quality and performance later.
 

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Grandma's gonna get ya!
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1,871 Posts
Toolapcfan said:
I've never used a set of aftermarket non-coilover springs because they all suck. And GR2's are a stock replacement, so I highly doubt they were the reason the struts didn't blow. First of all, any drop over 1" is asking for trouble unless you have a shortenend strut, so regardless who makes the springs and regardless what spring rates they are, a drop over 1" using a stock traveling strut is going to be a bad thing. Secondly, none of the springs out there have spring rates capable of handling ANY drop in ride height, because that results in less travel and the rates won't keep the car off the bumpstops. So what a drop spring should do, for any amount of money, should be to not drop the car more than is considered safe with stock strut travel and the spring rate should be high enough to keep the car off the bumpstops most of the time. So even if a set of springs were free, they're too expensive if they don't do either of those two things, because they're going to inevitably ruin the struts or cause bumpsteer in which case a person could be seriously injured or killed.
Hmmmmm. Well, you might think that I'm a real idiot or something and I don't have a clue what I'm talking about but I'm just trying to see where you are coming from. I'm not lying, after two years of moderate to hard driving on my suspension in the classic, the GR-2's were not blown- and they rode great, never on the bumpstops like you claim happens all the time regardless of anything (Even though you've never personally had a setup like that?). And by the way, they don't damper like stock struts, they are stiffer. Over the years I've personally lowered about 25 cars for myself and others, those who left their struts/shocks stock handled like ****, had shitty ride quality and bottomed out all the time. MOST who upgraded their struts/shocks had themselves cars that handled and rode great. But what do I know? I'm just some guy that doesn't agree with you- obviously I'm a ****ing idiot that knows nothing and has had his head stuck up his ass for the past 8 years. :rolleyes:
 

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Master Cunnilingust
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4,713 Posts
Discussion Starter #20 (Edited)
I'm sorry you're offended. I certainly wasn't trying to make any statements about you personally in my post. No, I have no experience with aftermarket springs other than the ERS I've had for about a year and the Progress that I just put on, and both are coupled with aftermarket struts as well. It's commonly accepted by the community that non-coilover aftermarket struts aren't up to the task at all, so I've always trusted that opinion. When I was working on becoming a WB for KYB I talked at length with them about their shocks/struts and they were the ones that told me that GR2's were a stock replacement, not necessarily an aftermarket upgrade. It's also commonly accepted by the community that dropping a B13 more than an inch is not a good idea unless you are making up that lost travel with a shortenend strut body. With that in mind, all aftermarket springs I've ever read of for the B13 drop more than an inch, and most drop 1.5" or more and are around the 160/140 in. lbs. rate. Again, I'm specifically talking about the B13 and the B14 has the same issues with drop. Dropping a B13 1.5" with a stock travel strut, would leave about 1-1/4" of strut travel before hitting the bumpstop. Now, although I might not have experience personally, I feel I can safely say that a B13 with lowering springs installed with stock traveling stuts, will be hitting the bumpstops with even minor bumps in the driving surface. Other cars may be fine with lots of drop and low spring rates. You asked, what a $150-$250 set of lowering springs are supposed to do, and I was simply answering that question. A set of lowering springs should lower the car but not severly compromise safety and cease to even function as a spring should, allowing the struts to be damaged.
 
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